Del Boy.

Tell me what case do Israeli claims have? They came to a place with limited shelter and resouerces where the only option to create a country was to expell the locals which they did.

There's two claims, one that the British legislature permitted it which is bollocks since Biriths legislature never permitted kicking out the Palestinians which was done and the other is that Israel existed in the region in obscure history.

Based on such clame French people should have Britain back (they're far closer to Celts than Brits) Poland should have Berlin which was originally a slavic settlement and so on and so forth.

There is no reasonable claim for Israelis to have a country there and quite a big moral and ethics based argument against establishing a country on the corpses of the local population.

Delboy, I notice that you have not attempted to rebut any of the more recent arguments against your earlier "On Topic" statements, made by several persons, but persist in going off at a tangent in order "Not to go there". (NO! and I'm not going to name them individually either or for that matter do anything else to continue your unsuccessful attempt at derailing the debate)

It seems that all of your points regarding the ridiculous claims of the European Jews to a "homeland" have been clearly and succinctly answered.

Back to the debate.

Seno, even though you have again failed to answer my direct questions, which I still require, I am delighted meanwhile to do what you request, and return to the subject, as I have previously promised the thread. I will be pleased to examine all posts and respond as I see fit; I will consider it a pleasure. Patience friends, patience ; the Jews have waited 3,000 years (LOL.) and I am a busy man.

So let us be sensible for a moment and start at the beginning. Here is the history of Israel in a nutshell, given the confines of space here. It is concise, and clearly defines the correctness of Israel's claim to their homeland. It shows clearly that the nation of Israel and their kingdom existed for thousands of years, that their homeland and their possessions were torn from them time and time again ONLY by conquest and force, and was always hard fought, and that in fact, despite that, despite being deprived of everything there by holocaust, dispersal and exile, they always maintained a presence there and returned many times. (Simply check the dates listed.)
To say that their claim is erroneous is to fly in the face of the cold facts, and this is my opening shot; this is how the dispute came about, and must be faced and taken into consideration :-




Evidence of Jewish presence in Israel dates back 3,400 years, to the formation of the religion. The name "Jews" derives from their origin in Judah. Over the course of this long history, the Jews have several times been dispersed and then returned from exile.
The origins of Judaism are uncertain. The Israelites are thought to have come into existence between 1400 and 1100 BCE in Canaan, developing an independent kingdom around 1050 BCE. Around 950 BCE, the kingdom split into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel. The Israelites were exiled by Assyria around 720 BCE.

In 586 BCE King Nebuchadnezzar 11 of Babylon conquered the Kingdom of Judah and exiled the population to Babylon..
In 538 BCE 50,000 Judeans, led by Zerubabel returned. A second group of 5000, led by Ezra and Nehemiah, returned toJudea in 456 BCE.

In 333 BCE Alexander the Great conquered Judea.

In the second century, Antiochus 1V Epiphanes tried to eradicate Judaism , by holocaust, in favor of Hellenism leading to the 174 - 135 BCE Maccadean Revolt.. The success of this revolt is celebrated in the Jewish festival of Hanukka.. The Books of the Maccabees documented the uprising.

In 64 BCE the Roman General,Pompey conquered Judea. The Jewish Temple in Jerusalem became the only religious structure in the Roman Empire which did not contain an effigy of the emperor and was one of the largest religious structures in the world. Herodian dynasty, Jewish-Roman client kings ruled Judea.

In 66 CE the Jews broke free of Rome, naming their short-lived kingdom variously "Israel" and "Zion". Israel's unsuccessful revolt against Roman domination and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Titus in the year 70 were described by the Roman-Jewish historian Josephus, including the famous last stand at Massada. (This was holocaust, and I have details of how it was done) The Jewish Revolt led the Christians, at this time a sub-sect of Judaism, to completely disassociate themselves from Judaism. This was reflected in the Gospels..
A second Jewish revolt in 135 also renamed the country Israel, and its defeat led the Emperor Hadrian to rename Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina. Jews were banned from living there and the Roman province, until then known as Iudaea Province, was renamed to Palaestina. The names "Palestine" (in English) and "Filistin" (in Arabic) derive from this name.


In 330 the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its official religion and the capital was moved to Byzantium, later renamed Constantinoble (and now called Istanbul.).
There was another Jewish Revolt in 351-352. Despite persecution, key Jewish religious texts were compiled in Israel between the years 200 and 1000. In the second century Israeli Rabbis decided which books could be regarded as part of the Hebrew Bible.. The Jewish apocrypha were left out (including the Books of the Maccabees.). Sacred Jewish texts written in Israel in this period include the Mishnah (200), the Gemara (400) and the Talmud (500).
In 614 a Jewish Revolt against Byzantine Emperor Heraclius with Persian support failed, leading to an edict expelling the Jews from Palestine.
. In 631, the Arabs defeated Heraclius and conquered the area.
From 636 until the Crusades, Palestine was ruled by the Medinah based Rashidun Caliphs, then the Damascus based Umayyad Caliphate and after that the Baghdad-based Abbasid Caliphs.
In 691, Ummayad Caliph Abd al-Malik (685-705) constructed the Dome of the Rock shrine on the Temple Mount. Many Jews consider it to contain the Foundation Stone which is the holiest site in Judaism. A second building, the Al-Aqsa Mosque was erected on the Temple Mount in 705.
Between the 7th and 11th centuries, Jewish scribes, called the Masoretes and located in the Galilee and Jerusalem, established the Masoretic Text, the final text of theHebrew Bible.

The name Palestine fell out of use under the Crusaders.. During the Crusades Jews in Israel were massacred or sold into slavery.
The murder of Jews began during the Crusaders' travels across Europe and continued in the Holy Land. Ashkenazi orthodox Jews still recite a praye in memory of the destruction caused by the Crusades.

From 1260 to 1291 Israel became the frontier beteween Mongol invaders ( occasional Crusader allies)) and the Mamluks of Egypt. The conflict impoverished the area and severely reduced its population. Sultan Baybars of Egypt eventually expelled the Mongols and eliminated the last Crusader Kingdom of Acre in 1291, thereby ending the Crusades.
The Egyptian Mamluks governed the area 1260 - 1517.
The collapse of the Crusades was followed by widespread expulsions of Jews in Europe, beginning in England (1290) and followed by France (1306). In the 15th century the large and well integrated Jewish communities in Spain (the Alhambra decree 1492) and Portugal (1497) were expelled or forced to convert. Persecutions usually also led to movement of Jews to Israel.Hebron and Jews were banned from worshipping at the Cave of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism) until its conquest by Israel 700 years later.
Under the Ottomans(1517—1917) the area was part of the province of Syria..
During 1648—1654 over 100,000 Jews were massacred in Eastern Europe, leading to further migration. The Jewish population of Israel was concentrated in the Four Holy Cities..
1799 Napolean briefly occupied the coast and prepared a proclamation offering tocreate a Jewish State, but did not issue it.
In 1844, under the Turks, Jews constituted the largest population group in Jerusalem and by 1890 an absolute majority in the city.
When the British conquered the area in 1917, they named it "Palestine" and defined boundaries including modern Israel, the West-Bank and Gaza and Jordan.

Thus were the kingdoms of Israel and Judea were divided up and diminished, after having suffered 300 years of neglect under the Turkish rule of the Ottoman empire.

Del Boy.

Virtually all of your post is designed as a strawman argument because you have no real arguments to justify Israels criminal creation, the ancient history is irrelevant in the light of following facts.

After the destruction of Jerusalem Jews willingly left their destroyed homeland, they have not been exiled they left of their own accord and have been largely absent for nearly a thousand years.

Arabs who came later rebuilt the destroyed city and lived in the towns abandoned by Jews therefore UNLIKE JEWS they never harmed anyone in the process.

Finally to adress your stark lie that Jews were under Turks a majority in Jerusalem.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Jerusalem.htm
The Ottoman census of 1844 showed that Jews were the largest minority in Jerusalem, constituting 47% of the population inside the city walls


This means that Jews were a large minority in ONE PART of the city, Jerusalem was by large a Palestinian city.

Compared to milions of later murdered and displaced Palestinians the Jewish presence even in Jerusalem was negible and your post is nothing short of a dishonest rant.

Now tell me again by what right did Jews take the homes of Palestianians, murdered or ejected them from Palestinian lands on which Palestinians lived for over 900 years? You failed to respond posting a strawman meanlngless text about Israels ancient history.

The situation as is now is that Jews took the home of the peoples who lived there for a thousand years, answer straight by what right did they do it?

It also completely ignores the argument that the land they claim as Israel was territory they invaded in the first place which seemingly is something the Israelis are prepared to concede.

The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament).

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp

You know on the other hand Slavinc people related to Poles arguably established Berlin during the Iron Age, evidence of Polish presence in the area dates back 2200 years, i demand Berlin back!

On a more serious note Del Boy, even if we were to adopt your nazi twisted logic by which people who left willingly have a right to take back their former homes after a 1000 years killing the native population, Jews are not Jews.

http://www.stormfront.org/posterity/...s/tttribe.html

This point has been raised time and time again, most modern Jews are converted Khazars not bibilical Israelites.

The point is of course moot since you're yet to prove Jews have any claim to the land they stole from the native population apart from being a bunch of racist neo nazis riding the holocaust guilt wave and US lobbies they engineered themselves.

wow, gentlemen, you bunch (all together) are the live proof why there is so much of a problem in this area.

From my POV, *all* (seemingly) logic applied in this thread is flawed, but it is soooo much off that discussion simply does not make sense or has a chance of finding a consensus (and I won´t become a terrorist, I do not live there).

Rattler

Not all discussions are about finding consensus though, the simple fact is that until people know the whole problem you can't expect to ever solve the problem and I tend to think that in the case of the middle east and Israel in particular there has been a sizable attempt (from both sides) to hide fact behind a religious void of inaccuracy.

From my point of view I don't believe that most Israeli's have any claim to land in the the region they simply invaded someone elses dirt using a fairy tale and some myths as validation and the political correctness that existed post WW2 let them get away with it.

However what is done is done even if my views were proven 100% accurate it is simply unrealistic to believe that it can be redressed with total satisfaction so any solution has to be a two state one of equal standing and yes that includes a Palestinian military and it has to have realistic and contiguous borders not a hotch potch of worthless chunks of land, its own airspace and territorial waters where appropriate.

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

Del Boy.

Virtually all of your post is designed as a strawman argument because you have no real arguments to justify Israels criminal creation, the ancient history is irrelevant in the light of following facts.

Not so. I am merely establishing to begin with that Israel has a very real claim to exist in its homeland. That is the first point. I have presented only FACTS from published lists. All historical fact. Given time I will answer all your posts - I can see you have very little real knowledge on the subject, but I will spare you a little time. But remember that I am not here to dance to your tune or demands, but to discuss why the Palestinians do not yet have a state, which is a long story and a complicated matter, which could well do without so much ignorant interference.

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

After the destruction of Jerusalem Jews willingly left their destroyed homeland, they have not been exiled they left of their own accord and have been largely absent for nearly a thousand years.

Absolute and complete nonsense, defying history. Read the list of my post for FACT.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

Arabs who came later rebuilt the destroyed city and lived in the towns abandoned by Jews therefore UNLIKE JEWS they never harmed anyone in the process.

Jerusalem was destroyed and rebuilt many times by different powers, including Israel. It was never abandoned ; again you spout complete denial of history.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

Finally to adress your stark lie that Jews were under Turks a majority in Jerusalem.

The list is a straightforward quotation of historical fact. The figure is correct, you are putting your own interpretation on it. Certainly in 1871 Jerusalem is described as a shabby, run down, corner of the Turkish empire of about 20,000 souls. I don't lie.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

Compared to milions of later murdered and displaced Palestinians the Jewish presence even in Jerusalem was negible and your post is nothing short of a dishonest rant.

My post is neither dishonest nor a rant. It is simply a list of historic fact. Have you the figures for the murdered millions? I will present my case in my way, to establish fact rather than fantasy .



The taking of Jerusalem by the Romans AD67:-

As soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder the began to seek further mischief; Caesar supplied them with it; giving orders that they should demolish the entire city and Temple, leaving only as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side; this wall was spared in order to afford a camp for those Roman soldiers as were to lie in garrison. The towers were spared as convincing proof to posterity of the great valour the Romans had displayed in overcoming such a strong and well fortified city. But as for the rest of the city, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground and dug up to the foundation, that there was no appearance of its ever having been inhabited; none that saw it could believe it anything but a waste.
Such was the pitiable end of Jerusalem – that great city of magnificence and of mighty fame among all mankind. During the whole siege the number killed was one million, one hundred thousand; of prisoners, ninety-seven thousand; not of Jerusalem alone, but of the adjacent districts, many of whom had taken refuge in the city, and more who had assembled for the feast of unleavened bread, had been shut up by the sudden formation of the siege. Added to this fearsome list in the conflict with Rome must be nearly 130,000 slain before the war with Vespasian, 118,000 during the war in Galilee and Judea , and after the fall of Jerusalem nearly 9000 in other parts of the country. The prisoners, who in the whole of these wars amounted to over 100,000, were doomed to be exposed in public, to fight with gladiators, or be devoured by wild beasts.12000 of these perished from want. The number of victims therefore swells to more than a million and a half souls.
Caesar left in Jerusalem as a guard the 10th Legion, with certain troops of horsemen and companies of foot soldiers. The fortresses of Herodion, Machaeron and Massada were not taken by Titus, but the first two were soon reduced by Lucilius Bassus, and the terrible tragedy of Massada under Flavius Silva passed into history.
Then an edict from the Emperor set up all the lands of the Jews for sale under Bassus, the whole proceeds reserved for the benefit of the imperial treasury. Vespasian also caused all branches of the house of Judea to be cut off.
Great was the triumph of Rome after the conquest of Palestine, and thus terminated the subjugation of Judea. Thus did the Jews lose their great Temple, their palaces and the political existence of their Jewish nation, torn from them by overwhelming force.


AD 130-135..
Then the arrival of the Messiah was proclaimed, Barcochab by name; however, he showed no inclination to insurrection, and the Romans, under Severus, found it expedient to reduce the province by blockade and famine rather than open war. The Jews gained many advantages, and at one time were in possession of fifty of the strongest castles, and nine hundred and eighty-five villages.
Eventually the discipline and strategy of Severus and his troops brought the war to a close. At the siege of Bether, the last strong city to hold out, Barcochab was killed and beheaded. As far as we can ascertain, this war lasted five years, and appears to have been far more formidable that could have been expected of the Jews, only two generations after their subjugation by Vespasian. It has been stated that during that war, the number of five hundred and eighty thousand fell by the sword, not including the hordes who fell by famine, disease and fire. The country became nearly a desert; wolves and hyenas prowled the streets of the desolate cities. The inhabitants were reduced to slavery by thousands.The rabbinate were the most ferociously persecuted; burnt, flayed alive and transfixed on spears, amongst punishments.
Hadrian, to dissipate forever all hopes of the restoration of the Jewish kingdom, accomplished his plan of founding a new city on the site of Jerusalem, peopled by a colony of foreigners; the Jews were prohibited by edict from entering the new city on pain of death; they were not able even to approach the environs to make its hallowed heights.
Until then, the Jewish had four times been nearly exterminated by holocaust: Nebuchadnezzar, Antioch, Titus and Hadrian had put forward their their utmost efforts to exstinguish, not merely the political existence of the state, but even the seperate being of the people.
Yet before the close of the second century, not sixty years after the war of destruction under Hadrian, the Jews present the extraordinary spectacle of two regular and organized communities, one under the Patriarch of Tiberius, including all of Israel descent within the Roman empire, the other under the Prince of the Captivity, including all eastern Jews.

None of the above refutes the fact that the Jews have absolutely no historical or theological "right" to Palestine. (Canaan)

Historically: The Canaanites are known to have been the inhabitants of this land long before the Jews ever arrived.

Theologically: (If you are that way inclined, and I am not) god never promised the land to the Jews, but to "the descendants of Abraham", which includes the Arabs via his son to a slave woman. This is verified in Genesis 16:1 Nowhere does it say Abraham's "legitimate" descendants.

So that brings it back to a very tenuous claim based on a "god" which would not stand up in any first world court, being totally without any credible proof.