All I have to say is although many of us here are sympathetic towards Israel for many other reasons, the evidence against Israel in terms of "rights to the land" seems to be bordering on overwhelming.
There's been a lot of other things that I've had to change views on in light of new evidence... this would be one of them. Every time it happens it's difficult to accept but somewhere along the line you just have to admit that you may have been wrong and see what is closer to the actual situation.
It doesn't matter so much that the Palestinian nationality was created as a reaction to the creation of Israel. Most of the Arabs I've met who weren't from North Africa didn't seem to care particularly as to which Arab country they were from. I had this one friend from Bahrain who told me that the Bahraini military is manned significantly (if not mostly) by non Bahrainis. Not surprising considering how small the country is. He never considered the non Bahraini Arabs serving in the military there as mercenaries. He said they're just Arabs helping defend other Arabs.
May explain why the Arabs in Palestine didn't have much of a sense of nationalism until they had a common problem in their hands.
Do I want Jews to vacate Israel ASAP? No.
But I think to reach a common understanding about the situation is a step in the right direction for both parties.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Del Boy please read post #91 The statement that you made, and the answer I gave.

OK, have it your way, in order to make the point.

So, according to your 'correct answer' how many of "those who today call themselves Palestinian" existed in 2004?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

OK, have it your way, in order to make the point.

So, according to your 'correct answer' how many of "those who today call themselves Palestinian" existed in 2004?

If you want to know that, why don't you read my answer, the answer is there in black and white.

I will no longer be repeating myself ad nauseam for your benefit. You are just not worth the effort.

Originally Posted by senojekips

If you want to know that, why don't you read my answer, the answer is there in black and white.

Yes, exactly.

Originally Posted by Del Boy
OK, have it your way, in order to make the point.

So, according to your 'correct answer' to how many of "those who today call themselves Palestinian" existed in 2004?


And your answer is : - 1,340,200. Thank You.
-------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

All I have to say is although many of us here are sympathetic towards Israel for many other reasons, the evidence against Israel in terms of "rights to the land" seems to be bordering on overwhelming.
There's been a lot of other things that I've had to change views on in light of new evidence... this would be one of them. Every time it happens it's difficult to accept but somewhere along the line you just have to admit that you may have been wrong and see what is closer to the actual situation.
It doesn't matter so much that the Palestinian nationality was created as a reaction to the creation of Israel. Most of the Arabs I've met who weren't from North Africa didn't seem to care particularly as to which Arab country they were from. I had this one friend from Bahrain who told me that the Bahraini military is manned significantly (if not mostly) by non Bahrainis. Not surprising considering how small the country is. He never considered the non Bahraini Arabs serving in the military there as mercenaries. He said they're just Arabs helping defend other Arabs.
May explain why the Arabs in Palestine didn't have much of a sense of nationalism until they had a common problem in their hands.
Do I want Jews to vacate Israel ASAP? No.
But I think to reach a common understanding about the situation is a step in the right direction for both parties.

I think if Israelis could understand this point we would be a hell of a lot further along the path to some level of peace in the Middle East however they are still trying to emulate European powers and negotiate from a position of power without actually understanding that the more power they try and exert the less anyone wants to negotiate.

The key to the Middle East is not about destroying Israel it is about reaching a compromise that ALL parties can accept and that means Israel has to understand that they are seen as invaders and no one is buying the "Promised Land" line and Palestinians are going to have to accept that Israel is always going to be there in one form or another.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Now I am not going keep repeating the same points over and over so unless you can prove that Hebrews were the majority in the region and that 3000 years of recorded history is all wrong I would suggest that we call it a draw and wait for a fresh perspective.

You have already told us there was never a country called Palestine.

You tell us that no-one can deny the Hebrew presence from as far back as 4000BCE.

And of course I accept that New Zealand was settled by conquest by Europeans with no claim whatsoever not very long ago.

Of course the Jewish Kingdoms were built on conquest, my posted lists also establish that.


I do not disagree anywhere with Israel's 3000 years of recorded history, why would I, that is my case, and I have chronologically listed it here on this thread, from 4300BCE to AD 1917.

The dates and events I have presented are the history, not matters of opinion. Of course there have been great periods of Hebrew majority, and times when Jerusalem was a magnificent jewel in the Kingdom of a Jewish nation, when there is no question of their being a minority. Everything is accounted for in my posts; I need say no more.

I have presented masses of detail of history on this thread and it is there to be referred to, or disputed where anyone finds it possible to.

I also am not going to keep repeating myself while all that detail still stands on the thread; the maintained presence of the Jews in the region from many thousands of years ago; the creation of the homeland of a nation, the establishing of a powerful Kingdom which lasted from 1273 BCE to AD 70; the attempts to hold their land, their continuing returns to reclaim; their suffering under repeated conquests; the nature of their struggles and what it took to tear them from their land. It is all here, from history, on this thread. All the mighty empires and powers that crushed them have faded, into distant memory, but the Jews remain, having denied annihilation so many times.

No-one can correctly deny that historically this was their homeland, without dismissing in detail what I have put down. I have nothing more to prove, I rely on facts, facts, and more facts.

I accept your suggestion of a draw between you and I, therefore, as I am tired with doing most of the batting and bowling, unlike yourself - the umpire. I will content myself that this is England and rain stopped play.

Originally Posted by MontyB

The key to the Middle East is not about destroying Israel it is about reaching a compromise that ALL parties can accept and that means Israel has to understand that they are seen as invaders and no one is buying the "Promised Land" line and Palestinians are going to have to accept that Israel is always going to be there in one form or another.

I agree with that 100%, until people sit around the table and talk to try and find some sort of agreement without throwing their toys out the cot, peace will never come to Israel/Palestine.

Admitting one's own mistakes or faults is possibly one of the greatest ways to earn the hearts and minds of those at odds with you.

Absolutely. Of course it requires both sides to want peace. But the rewards are so great.

All this warm and fuzzy stuff is just beautiful. I just love it.

I suggest that next time some crim breaks into your house and steals all you own, then humiliates you and your children denying them any justice, that you learn to love your agressor, and sit down with him to work out how you can help him humiliate you further, while you apologise to the world for attempting to defend your family and possessions.

Ahhh life is so wonderful when you just roll over and allow others to rooster you. "The rewards are so great"