Why did Germany lose WW2?

So was the lack of winter clothing, weapons lubricated with grease of the incorrect viscosity, the narrow tracks on the tanks, and the general lack of conditioning of the troops for colder weather (relative to the Russian counterparts) myths, or just exaggerated?
No, those were very real problems, but ones that the Germans should have anticipated had they had proper intelligence and/or had the appropriate respect for possible negative outcomes going into a war of this magnitude. For example, the whole timescale for Barbarossa was hopelessly optimistic and had the Germans been more realistic winter clothing would probably have been available for front line soldiers come November 1941. Likewise the narrow tracks on the Panzer IIIs and IVs should have been augmented in some way to deal with winter conditions. The weather did not affect the Red Army as much because they were better prepared but the Germans should not have been caught with their trousers down as they were.

In addition surely the Russians could rely on their rail network for communications, wereas the Germans were reliant on the muddy roads (the rail guage having to be changed being different to Western nations)
Well, this is always going to be one of the major advantages for a defensive army, especially in a situation where the defensive army is prepared to give up ground to buy time and invoke a scorched earth policy along the way. The Germans should have allowed for such advantages for the defender and also should have been aware of the need to re-lay thousands of miles of railroad tracks. Ideological thinking overrode common sense and the Germans paid for it.
 
Interesting

I have read this thread from start to finish and I have been both amazed and amused at times. I think Doppleganger has made some good points in the face of some blindingly stupid opposition, but like the Germans, he has lost out eventually due to weight of numbers. J
In Particular Doppleganger makes an interesting point in regards to German superiority at the tactical and operational level. In a sense this was the central cause for the Germans eventually losing the war. Whilst on the actual field of battle and with all things remaining equal the German army was far superior to any of the Allies, in a Strategic sense the German Army lacked a “Master Plan” for how the war should be fought at a strategic level. This resulted in the Wehrmart constantly having to shift resources from one “front” to the next in an effort to achieve their very limited goals.
To Blame Hitler Alone for this lack of long term strategy is at best short sighted. To say the man was an idiot, a poor general or even a micro manager is still erroneous and in my personal opinion a good example of how intelligent people can be mislead by the propaganda pumped out by a victorious side. Adolf Hitler dragged Germany out of the recession, made them a world power again, and then made some brilliant decisions in regards to who he put in charge of the Wehrmart. People forget the Hitler backed men like Guderian who’s ideas were in large responsible for the early success of the Wehrmart. Then, Hitler AND his Generals lack of long term planning for the war began to catch up with them in 1941. The Germans were rushed into making some poor decisions, particularly on the Eastern Front, and failure to switch to a war economy caught up with them. By 1942 a very winnable war was already lost by the ENTIRE German high command.
So without further ado here is my list of the critical failures of the Germans in WWII.
1) Germany did not switch to a war economy in 1940. Single biggest deciding Factor in the Germans defeat right here.

2) Improper use of their allies. Much has been said about the incompetence of the Italian Army. The biggest failure though was on the behalf of the Germans who did little to aid the Italians or the Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians. Had the Germans insisted on their Allies using German Equipment and adopting German military systems I think the Germans allies would have been a far more potent force. The Allies in Particular were masters at this, the Indians being a particularly fine example. Had the Germans taken the time and effort to assist more in the training of their allied troops then a lot of their supposed man power problems would never have eventuated.

3) Inflexible air force. Effective dive bomber and effective torpedo bomber. They had the best people in the world at it as their allies, ie) the Japanese, yet their air force lacked these vital components. With them the Germans could easily have controlled the entire Med and made life substantially more difficult for the Royal Navy in the Atlantic. I think this failure was actually Hitler’s fault as his racial prejudices clearly skewed his perspective.

4) The Southern Front. There should have been a far greater emphasis on the Med. Had the Germans, and their theoretically better supported Italian allies, been more effective here then the entire scope of the war in the East changes. With the Suez in Axis Hands and the Middle Eastern oil Fields threatened Russia and their Caucasian oilfields seem a lot less safe and the Turks may well have come into the war on the Axis side. There would have been little the British could have done to blunt this attack as they simply lacked the trained manpower to resist a concerted push towards to Middle East.




5) The Eastern Front. Again Doppleganger has some solid ideas here. The “go for broke approach” in 41 was suicide. All the Germans had to do was launch an offensive in 1941 that was designed to destroy the Russian Army. Then in 42, deliver the knockout blow to Moscow, without their central rail hub the Russians would no longer have been able to switch forces between the north and the south so easily and the Germans would have had interior lines. They could have crushed either Leningrad or Stalingrad at their leisure and that’s presuming the Soviets don’t surrender after Stalin Pops himself when Moscow falls. Also bear in mind that Moscow in soviet hands would have put the Turks in the Germans pocket. A Turkish declaration of war would have given the Germans both Russia and in all likelihood the Middle East as well.

Shooting war over in 42/43. New cold war between the Germans and the Allies begins straight afterwards, would anything have really been so different from how our world is now???
 
I have read this thread from start to finish and I have been both amazed and amused at times. I think Doppleganger has made some good points in the face of some blindingly stupid opposition, but like the Germans, he has lost out eventually due to weight of numbers. J
In Particular Doppleganger makes an interesting point in regards to German superiority at the tactical and operational level. In a sense this was the central cause for the Germans eventually losing the war. Whilst on the actual field of battle and with all things remaining equal the German army was far superior to any of the Allies, in a Strategic sense the German Army lacked a “Master Plan” for how the war should be fought at a strategic level. This resulted in the Wehrmart constantly having to shift resources from one “front” to the next in an effort to achieve their very limited goals.
To Blame Hitler Alone for this lack of long term strategy is at best short sighted. To say the man was an idiot, a poor general or even a micro manager is still erroneous and in my personal opinion a good example of how intelligent people can be mislead by the propaganda pumped out by a victorious side. Adolf Hitler dragged Germany out of the recession, made them a world power again, and then made some brilliant decisions in regards to who he put in charge of the Wehrmart. People forget the Hitler backed men like Guderian who’s ideas were in large responsible for the early success of the Wehrmart. Then, Hitler AND his Generals lack of long term planning for the war began to catch up with them in 1941. The Germans were rushed into making some poor decisions, particularly on the Eastern Front, and failure to switch to a war economy caught up with them. By 1942 a very winnable war was already lost by the ENTIRE German high command.
So without further ado here is my list of the critical failures of the Germans in WWII.
1) Germany did not switch to a war economy in 1940. Single biggest deciding Factor in the Germans defeat right here.

2) Improper use of their allies. Much has been said about the incompetence of the Italian Army. The biggest failure though was on the behalf of the Germans who did little to aid the Italians or the Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians. Had the Germans insisted on their Allies using German Equipment and adopting German military systems I think the Germans allies would have been a far more potent force. The Allies in Particular were masters at this, the Indians being a particularly fine example. Had the Germans taken the time and effort to assist more in the training of their allied troops then a lot of their supposed man power problems would never have eventuated.

3) Inflexible air force. Effective dive bomber and effective torpedo bomber. They had the best people in the world at it as their allies, ie) the Japanese, yet their air force lacked these vital components. With them the Germans could easily have controlled the entire Med and made life substantially more difficult for the Royal Navy in the Atlantic. I think this failure was actually Hitler’s fault as his racial prejudices clearly skewed his perspective.

4) The Southern Front. There should have been a far greater emphasis on the Med. Had the Germans, and their theoretically better supported Italian allies, been more effective here then the entire scope of the war in the East changes. With the Suez in Axis Hands and the Middle Eastern oil Fields threatened Russia and their Caucasian oilfields seem a lot less safe and the Turks may well have come into the war on the Axis side. There would have been little the British could have done to blunt this attack as they simply lacked the trained manpower to resist a concerted push towards to Middle East.




5) The Eastern Front. Again Doppleganger has some solid ideas here. The “go for broke approach” in 41 was suicide. All the Germans had to do was launch an offensive in 1941 that was designed to destroy the Russian Army. Then in 42, deliver the knockout blow to Moscow, without their central rail hub the Russians would no longer have been able to switch forces between the north and the south so easily and the Germans would have had interior lines. They could have crushed either Leningrad or Stalingrad at their leisure and that’s presuming the Soviets don’t surrender after Stalin Pops himself when Moscow falls. Also bear in mind that Moscow in soviet hands would have put the Turks in the Germans pocket. A Turkish declaration of war would have given the Germans both Russia and in all likelihood the Middle East as well.

Shooting war over in 42/43. New cold war between the Germans and the Allies begins straight afterwards, would anything have really been so different from how our world is now???
 
Well I have to say that I am amazed that this thread made it to 27 pages but I am impressed that it has without breaking into a fight.

Anyway I figure I will reply to a few of your points:
1) I agree.

2) I disagree, the Italians were worse than useless, they were also a handicap and Romania, Bulgaria and Hungry were no better. More Germans died to the ineptitude and lack of ability at all levels and in all branches of the services in these countries than to the allies.

Sure it would have been nice if Germany had a spare 10 years to bring these nations up to spec but quite frankly they didn't have that time and they barely had enough production to keep the German army equipped in the first few years of the war let alone supply 3 other nations.

The only real use I could see for Germany's allies would have been as garrison troops to free up genuine fighting troops however given the easy at which allied POW's walked in and out of Italian camps I am not sure they were capable of doing that successfully.

3) Possibly, hard to say.
Had political interference and over confidence not been rife in the German high command they would have had jet fighters and bombers in 1943 and even at the end of the war Germany was well ahead of Japan in aircraft technology.

4) I don't agree.
The southern front was always going to be a loser for Germany unless they had managed to coordinate with the Japanese and the reason for this failure was always going to be India and South Africa there geographical locations and industrial capacity made it impossible for Germany to "end" a front and shorten their supply lines.
Personally I believe they would have been far better off forgetting North Africa and concentrating on Russia and using a defeated Russia as a springboard for a two pronged attack into the middle east.

5) Is pure speculation, it is well founded but still speculation. Turkey may or may not have joined the war, Moscow may or may not have fallen and it may or may not have gone on to become the "Stalingrad" of Army Group Center (I believe it would have).
 
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To Blame Hitler Alone for this lack of long term strategy is at best short sighted. Adolf Hitler ..made some brilliant decisions in regards to who he put in charge of the Wehrmart.

1) The Germans were rushed into making some poor decisions, particularly on the Eastern Front, and failure to switch to a war economy caught up with them.

2) Improper use of their allies.

3) Inflexible air force. Effective dive bomber and effective torpedo bomber.

4) The Southern Front. With the Suez in Axis Hands and the Middle Eastern oil Fields threatened Russia and their Caucasian oilfields seem a lot less safe.

5). A Turkish declaration of war would have given the Germans both Russia and in all likelihood the Middle East as well.

Parmenian a few comments

Germany declared war on the US (what's the point?) and invaded Russia late in the season. If it wasn't Hitler's fault who was it?

I agree with 1) in addition they failed to mobilise the female population into replacing male labour which could be used at the front.

2) Despite their remoteness there was a lack of coordination between Japan and Germany, particularly during late 41 were Japanese sabre rattling in the far East could have prevented the Siberian divisions being moved to the European front. They should also have focused on cutting the UK out of the war rather than bring the US into the war. Japan should have focused on cutting British supplies from the Far and Middle East and cutting of the Med from the East

This brings us to 3) Well the Ju 88 was a decent dive bomber, do you mean naval dive bomber? Yes there should have been greater cooperation in naval technology generally. Geramny lacked carriers in particular, combined with decent air arm they may have been able to defeat the Royal Navy armed with only antiquated aircraft.

4) and 5) We have discussed the difficulty in accessing the Caucasian oilfields from the Turkish side on other threads, look at a terrain map.
 
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Parmenian, I agree with your assumption, the Germans were brilliant at the tactical and operational levels of battle. They blundered at the Strategic level. To say German Grand Strategy was pathetic is really misleading. In fact, they had no grand strategy. But this isn't to say the entire German officer class was bereft of understanding grand strategy. In fact many did.

Fritsch, the commander of the army had reservations about Hitler for quite some time. And though Fritsch's background was civilian, he was appointed by Hindenberg because of his understanding of Strategy amoung other things. Hitler saw Fritsch as a block to his grand unthought out plan for European domination. Fritsch who was eventually gotten rid of, saw Hitler for what he was. A man whose insatiable greed for power and unstable mind could bring ruin to Germany.

Any one who argued with Hitler was dismissed. Hitler's motivation stemmed from a bias formed by an earlier envy of the Heer officer class, especially Pussians You state that it was Hitler who backed men like Guderian. He also back Von Manstein and Hoepner. Its more truthfull to say he used these people to further his gains, but underneath the facade of interest he only had contempt for these officers. And in his fantasy laced mind he thought he could do a better job than these people and he knew more than them, etc, etc.
Remember, it was the Fuehrer who dismissed Guderian and quite a few others because they disagreed with his decisions on strategy or rather lack of it at the ost front.

Grand Admiral Raeder saw Hitler's folly from the beginning. The Admiral suggested a brilliant way of defeating the British. He believed Sea Lion was preposterous. But he also believed the defeat of Britain was very possible another way. That way was through North Africa and Egypt and the Suez Canal in particular. With control
of the Suez Canal and continued u-boat pressure in the Atlantic. Britain could eventually be brought to its knees. I wont get into the particular way in which this could be obtained, but there is definatly good reasoning here and lets just say the Admiral made a good case. With the eventual taking of Malta, the Mediterranean would become an Axis Lake, not to mention the infinate amount of fuel for the German states taking.

Hitler had war on his mind from 1934 if not earlier and he should have changed the industrial climate in Germany then. His irrational thinking concerning the quality of German weapons in terms of craftsmanship vs quickly made stamped parts for modern weapons was a terrible detriment to the German armaments industry.


2) Improper use of their allies. Much has been said about the incompetence of the Italian Army. The biggest failure though was on the behalf of the Germans who did little to aid the Italians or the Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians. Had the Germans insisted on their Allies using German Equipment and adopting German military systems I think the Germans allies would have been a far more potent force. The Allies in Particular were masters at this, the Indians being a particularly fine example. Had the Germans taken the time and effort to assist more in the training of their allied troops then a lot of their supposed man power problems would never have eventuated.

Germany's biggest disappointment must be Italy. Italy actually had some very good units. Some of there Alpine troops were excellent. But overall Mussolini's ambition's outweighed his manpower and equipment. It appears Hungary, and Rumania as well as Bulgaria were at least two decades behind German battle doctrine let alone quality of troops and equipment. With Hitler so eager for war, would a comprehensive course in German tactics and the use of German weapons help? Maybe and only if he postponed his boneheaded June 22, 1941 move.

3) Inflexible air force. Effective dive bomber and effective torpedo bomber. They had the best people in the world at it as their allies, ie) the Japanese, yet their air force lacked these vital components. With them the Germans could easily have controlled the entire Med and made life substantially more difficult for the Royal Navy in the Atlantic. I think this failure was actually Hitler’s fault as his racial prejudices clearly skewed his perspective.

You can blame the lame developement of fighter aircraft directly on Hitler. Even Field Marshall Erhard Milch, the only Mischlinge, (half-jew) Hitler tolerated, told the Fuehrer, without constant upgrades especially to fighters, Germany would be lost. Milch, by the way was the true force behind the Luftwaffe, not Udet, and certainly not the lazy Goering. Also if Germany had taken North Africa in 41 instead of butting heads with Stalin, the Italian Navy could have policed the Mediterranean for the Axis. With Malta gone, all that is left would be Gibralter. With England on the way down Franco might well have taken the territory. The Mediterannean becomes an Axis lake

4) The Southern Front. There should have been a far greater emphasis on the Med. Had the Germans, and their theoretically better supported Italian allies, been more effective here then the entire scope of the war in the East changes. With the Suez in Axis Hands and the Middle Eastern oil Fields threatened Russia and their Caucasian oilfields seem a lot less safe and the Turks may well have come into the war on the Axis side. There would have been little the British could have done to blunt this attack as they simply lacked the trained manpower to resist a concerted push towards to Middle East.



Basically we agree on this one. But I believe Hitler would have to take Palestine, Syria, and eventually Iran for the Turks to jump on the Axis Ship. But yes, it could have been done.




5) The Eastern Front. Again Doppleganger has some solid ideas here. The “go for broke approach” in 41 was suicide. All the Germans had to do was launch an offensive in 1941 that was designed to destroy the Russian Army. Then in 42, deliver the knockout blow to Moscow, without their central rail hub the Russians would no longer have been able to switch forces between the north and the south so easily and the Germans would have had interior lines. They could have crushed either Leningrad or Stalingrad at their leisure and that’s presuming the Soviets don’t surrender after Stalin Pops himself when Moscow falls. Also bear in mind that Moscow in soviet hands would have put the Turks in the Germans pocket. A Turkish declaration of war would have given the Germans both Russia and in all likelihood the Middle East as well.



Your idea sounds quite easy. But the reality of the situation was quite different. Hitler needed to take Moscow in 41. Moscow was the communication hub of the nation. You take Moscow and youv'e done two important things. You have driven their morale to an all time low and youv'e destroyed their communications. Now you have your choice to attack north towards Leningrad or South towards Sevastopol. Hitler never had enough forces for the broad attack form he adherred to.
But Hitler's intelligence apparatus was lame also. The Russians at this time had the best and most powerfull tanks in the world and the German's had no idea. Stalin had no wish to start a war with Hitler for many reasons. Well not for a good five or six years anyway. The main reason was his lack of officers, because of the purges.
One last thing to note: If he had gone into Russia with the propoganda of freeing the people from Stalin's grasp, he may well of succeded. But this supposed mastermind let his stupid hate fester and carry the day.

Shooting war over in 42/43. New cold war between the Germans and the Allies begins straight afterwards, would anything have really been so different from how our world is now??? [/quote]

If you really believe it wouldn't be that much different, you are fooling yourself.

Parmenian, I did quote you but was unsuccessfull in partitioning the quotes. My Apologies.
 
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DAAAAAAAWKINSSSSSSS

in my personally opinion i believe that germany lost as we had the grace of dawkins on out side. all hail dawkins
 
Germany going on to a war footing, well didn't have to when they had millions of slaves to do the work in th factories. Millions of the Russian POW were made to dig fortifications or underground factories. Millions of men were drafted into Germany from all over occupied Europe to work in their factories, even many of the Jews in concentration camps had to work on war production. Also when ever a country was captured it was looted from top to bottom and much of this cash was used to fund the German war machine.
 
I reckon Germany lost because:

A) They were overwhelmed by the allies in numbers
B) They produced tanks at a far slower rate, when countries like the Soviet Union produced good tanks at a good pace, and America spewed out Shermans.
C) Loss of important material
D) Declining morale
 
Sometimes in analyzing reasons for Germany Losing the war the obvious ones are under stated.
Here is a possible list of the true reasons

Germany had fewer men in comparison to the Russian and British USA French Canadian Australian NZ forces combined.

They had an inferior Airforce that was virtually non exixstent after 43.

They believed that Britain wanted them to beat Russia and hence until 42 believed Britain would remain quiet whilst they eliminated the Russian menace which had killed over 30 million civilians in their own country thus far.
Britain and France were terrified of the communist murderous russian stalinists ,but Hitler falsely believed they would settle for a dominant Germany instead.

Britain and France had gone through ww1 as allies despite centuries of war and mistrust of each other,Hitler knew that better than anyone, but he gambled on their agreement to thwart Russia by bowing to Germany.
They instead played the Germans off against the Russians, and then produced the trump card of the USA, a factor Hitler did not factor in until it was too late and even then the sheer genius of Operation Overlord would not readily have been imagined.

Hitler should have destroyed the Brits at dunkirk along with the french ,but he wanted them to shore up against the Russians, he was a evil tyrant but even he could not imagine The Brits wanting to allie with stalin a madman who had wiped out over thirty million of his own citizens(this was known to the west all so well) and who were secretly building a mammoth army (for what purpose?)

Instead Hitler fought the real enemy of europe the Russians whilst Britain rubbed their hands in glee a hunter watching two ferocious beasts weaken themselves whist the hunter gathered strength and help to slay the beast closest.
 
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Oddly enough this raises an interesting question:
Why did Germany declare war on the USA at all, there was the argument that as part of the Tripartite Pact they were obliged to but this isn't the case as Japan was the aggressor further to this there can not have been much love lost with Japan given that they had not declared war on Russia when Germany invaded in fact Japan signed a non-aggression pact with Russia.
 
Sometimes in analyzing reasons for Germany Losing the war the obvious ones are under stated.
Here is a possible list of the true reasons


...."evil tyrant but even he could not imagine The Brits wanting to allie with stalin a madman who had wiped out over thirty million of his own citizens(this was known to the west all so well) "

Good post, but i would query one point:-
Re Stalin - your ('this was known to the west all so well') - this was certainly not the public case. Stalin was uderstood to be a genial 'Uncle Joe' character, and here in Britain he was venerated by much of working class. Remember that immediately after WW11 the Socialists were voted into power. The truth of Stalin's regime did not appear to become clear to the British public until some time after his demise.
 
I reckon Germany lost because:

A) They were overwhelmed by the allies in numbers
B) They produced tanks at a far slower rate, when countries like the Soviet Union produced good tanks at a good pace, and America spewed out Shermans.
C) Loss of important material
D) Declining morale

A) Ok your right :)
B) Only the T34 was good the first Sherman's were death traps powered by gasoline
C) Don't ya just love bombing things :)
D) They lost their Marilyn Monroe picture :)
 
At the end of the day Germany only had limited resources, men & materiel. Once the USA weighed in, there was no real hope. The Soviets had the manpower, the USA the industrial might and the British Empire had the staying power, plus the Germans had a micro manager in charge.
 
Why did Germany lose ww11? there is a very obvious but overlooked reason which settles the matter.

Here it is :-

"The German's inability to appreciate cricket, it now becomes clear,was their severest weakness.

Travelling through that now beautiful and peaceable nation, you can't help thinking that one thing and one thing only could improve it; large numbers of cricket pritches." - M. Berkmann.

There you have it - problem solved; and you heard it here first.:type:
 
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