Why a civillian should not be in charge of the military

[I3BrigPvSk]

I guess what I was trying to get at was that I know there is corruption. I know that it is everywere. But my biggest argument was that I think that using a system of civilians and military officials would probably be the most effective way to keep corruption down. Do I think my military is the least... Im not so sure. Some days yes, others no. Do I think there are other worse than mine, Yes, definitly yes.

I just know this LeMask. I am a Marine, I am part of the literal right arm of the president. Can he be a corrupt man? Yes. Is he? I dont know. Probably not the worst if he is. I know there have been blunders in the past. But as for right now. Your reading into the woman thing in afghanistan all wrong dude. We are there as an occupying force now. Its different from invasion.

You cant just go in and be there... When that happens it gets bad. Worse than it already is. But whatever. Ill fold on this. Others know more about politics than me. I'm just a lance that takes the orders dude.

To describe politics in an easy way is to say negotiations are similar as when you shall buy a car, so easy to be screwed, and you will be. politicans and officials do what fits them for the moment, when they do not need your support any more...... Then we have a problem here if we discuss corruption, the definition of corruption, taking bribes are the most common definition of corruption, but the world has many forms of corruption, political alliancies, benefit companies you have an economic interest in instead of the competitive companies. Then I would like to hear the steps to reduce corruption, what are they? The honor? Yeah right, people are not like that, I am really cynical about people. So presentate the real steps to reduce corruption.

Btw, you are not "only" a lance, you are a Marine. A good marine, you are doing a great job. Still a political tool, which the Gov of the US can use. Do you have the possibility to educate yourself during your time? If you take it, even if its difficult to take a Bachelor degree meanwhile you are a Marine.

 

[LeMask]

Okay Seehund, one last thing and I will withdraw...

Shelf, you are right, I'm not a Marine, and I will never tell you how to be a Marine.

But one thing, in Marine, always capitalize the M.

Shelf said:
I know that every marine is a brother. And we would do anything to get eachother out and back alive. So Im leaving this debate before I say things that will get me banned.

I dont really withdraw, just that we dont understand each others...

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I know that in US law, and in many countries, it's not allowed to take, as an example, an insurance on the house of somebody else... Because you can set fire on this house, and then, the family will be homeless if they have no insurance, and you get money for it.

Somebody had to make a law for this kind of things, a separation between two things, between a financial tool to provide security (insurance) and the people who might benefit wrongly of such tools...

Ghostrider explained wisely that soldiers are political tools. Just think about special forces who are the perfect definition of that. Remember the French special operatives sent in Africa to retrieve French citizens in civil unrest situations? They are under the orders of the political part of the government, directly...

No problem in being a political tool, we are ALL a political tool somehow... Everything we do as human being is political.

But when being a tool is more than just an image, but a REAL situation, because you have strict orders... And important ones, dealing with life and death and even the survival of a whole nation... You just cant allow corrupt people to give such orders. And I know that it's not an argument, but we all know that politics are like a hornet nest... They backstab each others all the time, change positions, accept legal bribes (lobbying), let personal feeling and personal opinions take decisions etc etc...

If this is an issue in a very corrupt under developed country in Africa... The same principle can still be valid in a modern and slightly corrupt country in Europe, or in Asia, on in America... Same people there...

 

[Prapor]

Okay Seehund, one last thing and I will withdraw...

Shelf, you are right, I'm not a Marine, and I will never tell you how to be a Marine.

But one thing, in Marine, always capitalize the M.

I dont really withdraw, just that we dont understand each others...

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I know that in US law, and in many countries, it's not allowed to take, as an example, an insurance on the house of somebody else... Because you can set fire on this house, and then, the family will be homeless if they have no insurance, and you get money for it.

Somebody had to make a law for this kind of things, a separation between two things, between a financial tool to provide security (insurance) and the people who might benefit wrongly of such tools...

Ghostrider explained wisely that soldiers are political tools. Just think about special forces who are the perfect definition of that. Remember the French special operatives sent in Africa to retrieve French citizens in civil unrest situations? They are under the orders of the political part of the government, directly...

No problem in being a political tool, we are ALL a political tool somehow... Everything we do as human being is political.

But when being a tool is more than just an image, but a REAL situation, because you have strict orders... And important ones, dealing with life and death and even the survival of a whole nation... You just cant allow corrupt people to give such orders. And I know that it's not an argument, but we all know that politics are like a hornet nest... They backstab each others all the time, change positions, accept legal bribes (lobbying), let personal feeling and personal opinions take decisions etc etc...

If this is an issue in a very corrupt under developed country in Africa... The same principle can still be valid in a modern and slightly corrupt country in Europe, or in Asia, on in America... Same people there...

Russia's military and special forces have always been ones who dared defy the government. In 1993, Specnaz team Alfa officers refused to follow Yeltsin's order to storm the parliament.

And, in 2008, when there was war in Georgia, why did Russian forces pull back and not finish, not take Tbilisi? I tell you why, because Russian troops did not want to hurt or kill innocent Georgians anymore, or to destroy their homes. Frankly, many, not only soldiers, but officers and generals, were reluctant to go into that war in the first place. They did not want to fight Georgians, Georgians always have been brothers to Russians, fact. When Russian Army was in Georgia, Georgian families invited Russian soldiers into their homes, offered them food and drinks! It was a very awkward war. In the end, it was not because of Sarcosy that Russia did not attack Tbilisi, it was because Russian soldiers and officers refused. As simple as that. And Putin could not force them.

That is why we have more respect than civillians, and why we do not want Putin's sofa salesmen giving us orders.

And if they keep on treating the military like crap, next time it might not be soccer fans with baseball bats marching on Manezh square, but men in uniforms, with Kalashnikovs. What will OMON do then, I wonder?

 

[LeMask]

Prapor, dude, stop that, or I will fall in love with Russia's military forces... Do you have foreign legion like unit? Is there an age limit?

But honestly, I think that it should be the normal behavior of soldiers...

And the hell with the people who will call that poor discipline...

 

[boris116]

Well, I still think that we should give the military a budget. Following the needs of the moment.

And link them with the intelligence community, ask them to provide security. Put the justice department in power to keep their actions in check, and basta... Nothing more.

No civilian leadership... All we need is finances + justice. All the rest should be avoided.

Mix the military with money and politics and you get a bunch of criminals in no time... And the honest people will have a hard time stopping them as they are the ones trained and equiped for warfare.

I would say that both solutions are bad.
1. No civilian control leads to militarization of the entire country (The Soviet Union, N. Korea, Iraq are good examples). No budgetary strings will prevent it.
2. The civilian control tends to view military problems through the purse, so to speak. History knows many examples of hastened demilitarisation after one war(to save money!) that have led to complete unpreparedness to the next one. Also, it brings a lot of politicking into it("don't ask..." is just one example).

However, the problems with the second approach are less costly to the country than with the first one.

If we recall that several attempts to reorganize the Russian Armed forces have failed miserably under the military leaders(due to the generals' resistance) Putin had not have much choice.

He can't keep the huge Soviet-style army and he was not able to modernize it.

IMHO, he is trying to "downsize" it to yhe point where only the strategic nuclear forces and the small battle-ready land army(to defend the nukes) remain.

Unfortunately, it goes in by common for that country unpleasant style of reforms ruining lives hundreds of thousands officers and their families.

Do they are not happy. Very unhappy...

 

[Shelf]

To describe politics in an easy way is to say negotiations are similar as when you shall buy a car, so easy to be screwed, and you will be. politicans and officials do what fits them for the moment, when they do not need your support any more...... Then we have a problem here if we discuss corruption, the definition of corruption, taking bribes are the most common definition of corruption, but the world has many forms of corruption, political alliancies, benefit companies you have an economic interest in instead of the competitive companies. Then I would like to hear the steps to reduce corruption, what are they? The honor? Yeah right, people are not like that, I am really cynical about people. So presentate the real steps to reduce corruption.

Btw, you are not "only" a lance, you are a Marine. A good marine, you are doing a great job. Still a political tool, which the Gov of the US can use. Do you have the possibility to educate yourself during your time? If you take it, even if its difficult to take a Bachelor degree meanwhile you are a Marine.

Ill keep this in mind Ghostrider, thanks.