Why a civillian should not be in charge of the military

Poet Sarah, thank you for your kind words. My sentiments are from the heart.

Prapor & Le Mask, the day that the Armed Forces start deciding what is best for their country, is a very sad day. We are by nature conservative, and yes slightly resistant to change. We uphold values and principles that sometimes can seem at odds with modern society - but we must never forget that we are a reflection of modern society. Our Soldiers and Officers do not grow up in a vacuum, they bring new thoughts and ideas with them, not always welcome - because they challenge us and our way of doing things - this is how we grow and improve, don't forget that the Armed Forces have lead virtually every major technological breakthrough, not by standing on tradition, but by respecting traditions and striving to do more.

In my mind it is essential that the "civilian" powers are in control of the Armed Forces, my reasons are:
1. The majority of the population are not soldiers/sailors/airmen, so should be represented by people who aren't members of the Armed Forces.
2. Conflict brings progress and rewards in the military (along with quite a few casualties), but seldom brings rewards for the country - we need the impartial arbiter who "represents" the people to stop us resolving all of our problems at the end of a gun.
3. Soldiers are for fighting, not for governing, if you want a career in govt - take it, but don't try to do 2 things at once, you may manage both, but it will not be as effective as focussing on one or the other.

Could ramble on a lot more, but I'll just throw those thoughts out for discussion.
 
Interesting answer Partisan, I mostly agree with you, or at least, I understand why you say that.
We dont ask the military to take political decisions.

But I'm for a separation between the state and the military, or in fact, when I see what the state is doing, the business world and the military.

For me, the military are the people who responsible for the security of the country. They are trained, equipped and competent in the matters of security.

And as they would be the ones doing the fighting, they dont want to wage war on other people for resources or for political power, because they dont want to be killed for money...
They wont support a dictatorship for political power for the same reasons and maybe other reasons like honor, integrity, discipline, personal courage etc...
And I believe that strong military with strong and proud men have these values at heart.

And about the technological research in the military... Well, the military had the need and budgets... And in wars, they have the attention of every person capable of innovation.

And for your arguments:
- The majority of people are honest hardworking people. They are not political douche bags who support dictators like Saddam Hussein/The Iranian Shah/Pinochet/Egyptian government/Israeli extremist right winger and send young men to die for bogus reasons...
- In fact, war costs a lot and brings absolutely nothing to honest men... In fact, the riches you can take from war work like curses. Tell that to Japan after WWII, tell that to the American people the day they will have to pay for the bill of the war on terror, tell that to the Germans, tell that to the USSR after Afghanistan, tell that to Marines after Vietnam... The only people who won something are the ones selling weapons...

On your third argument, I fully agree, I say "never put a plan inside another plan, it's the best way to fail in both plans."

Military version: "By shooting on two targets at the same time, you can miss them both."
 
LeMask I dont really know where to start. Your opinions about past countries past wars or actions, are off... At best I can just leave this lay. But all I can say is this, towards your comment at Prapor, sorry I cant rememer the General's name you said, if they call that General a well decorated hero, means just that, in their eyes he is a hero. Just becuase he served in that war doesn't make him a monster. How do you know that in that Russian's head in afghanistan, or that Marines head in Vietnam, or that German's head in WWII that they didnt question their government? How do you know that they didnt just follow orders like a good soldier or Marine? One phrase comes to mind I use often, "It does what it's told."

And just becuase Germany had done horrible things in the past, do you still blame and hold their country acountable after they have progressed several Generations? So have the Russians and the Americans. I use Americans lightly becuase I can only think of a few massive incidents that were wrong and against the laws of war. So LeMask, all I'm saying, slow your roll dude, no need to get overworked up over something you will never change that happened in the past.

As for a civilian being in charge, I dislike it but I know that, budgets aside, it keeps corruption down to it's minimum. If you have an all military military... You get coups. A shift in power over, and over and over. The different Division of armies in the country would probably break into war over power and rule. It just turns into who has the biggest fist?

But hey, this is just my opinion. So whatever.
 
We are all responsible for our own actions. Orders arent an excuse. In military laws, the soldiers are supposed to refuse orders if they are unlawful.
If they accept them anyway, then it's called poor discipline and corruption.

I have absolutely nothing against Germans. And I dont hold them responsible for the crimes of the generations before them. I definitely dont.

But If I see some Nazi, German or not... I will blame him for all the crazy stuff Nazis did...
Same if I see an Islamist supporting terrorism...
Of course, there is a difference between blaming people and accusing them of a crime...

And what about all the war crimes happening all over the world and through history? All these slaughtered people in Afghanistan under the red army, all these raped women in Germany after WWII, all these horrors in Chechnya?

How to be a man of honor in such places, when such things are happening?

And you see them giving each others medals congratulating themselves for their abilities to kill... "oh yeah, you are a ruthless man, here, take a medal..."

And can you explain how having a civilian leadership helps preventing a coup?
The only thing preventing a coup is the political environment. If you have strong and active citizens... There is no way that the military would plan a coup to take power, because the country would lose too much and no one would benefit from such loss...

If the balance of power isnt stable, a civilian leadership wouldnt be heavy enough to balance things up...

The military hold some awesome powers. The power to kill and destroy. We dont have the right to use this power lightly, we tolerate the use of such powers in life and death situation, to defend ourselves.
The military are wise enough to use this power with responsability as they will be themselves facing enemies who hold a similar power.

The civilian world is too corrupt and too focused on business, power and money to play with such things...

my 2cents...
 
LeMask said:
We are all responsible for our own actions. Orders arent an excuse. In military laws, the soldiers are supposed to refuse orders if they are unlawful.
If they accept them anyway, then it's called poor discipline and corruption.

I have absolutely nothing against Germans. And I dont hold them responsible for the crimes of the generations before them. I definitely dont.

But If I see some Nazi, German or not... I will blame him for all the crazy stuff Nazis did...
Same if I see an Islamist supporting terrorism...
Of course, there is a difference between blaming people and accusing them of a crime...

And what about all the war crimes happening all over the world and through history? All these slaughtered people in Afghanistan under the red army, all these raped women in Germany after WWII, all these horrors in Chechnya?

How to be a man of honor in such places, when such things are happening?

And you see them giving each others medals congratulating themselves for their abilities to kill... "oh yeah, you are a ruthless man, here, take a medal..."

And can you explain how having a civilian leadership helps preventing a coup?
The only thing preventing a coup is the political environment. If you have strong and active citizens... There is no way that the military would plan a coup to take power, because the country would lose too much and no one would benefit from such loss...

If the balance of power isnt stable, a civilian leadership wouldnt be heavy enough to balance things up...

The military hold some awesome powers. The power to kill and destroy. We dont have the right to use this power lightly, we tolerate the use of such powers in life and death situation, to defend ourselves.
The military are wise enough to use this power with responsability as they will be themselves facing enemies who hold a similar power.

The civilian world is too corrupt and too focused on business, power and money to play with such things...

my 2cents...
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I agree. In this society though, Russian society, civilians are, as you said, too corrupt. In civillian Russian society, parents pay bribes to teachers, to give their children better marks; to doctors and hospital administrators, to pull them ahead in line for operations or medications; to GAI, road police, when stopped for speeding or being intoxicated while driving. In civillian Russian society, you can buy a police, FSB, military, or government official uniforms, IDs, car plate numbers, etc. You can buy university diplomas, scientific degree certificates, et al. You can buy anything and anyone.

The Russian military, while reflective of civillian society, is still not so bad yet. So, you can see why we are trying not to let that world into ours.
 
LeMask said:
We are all responsible for our own actions. Orders arent an excuse. In military laws, the soldiers are supposed to refuse orders if they are unlawful.
If they accept them anyway, then it's called poor discipline and corruption.

I have absolutely nothing against Germans. And I dont hold them responsible for the crimes of the generations before them. I definitely dont.

But If I see some Nazi, German or not... I will blame him for all the crazy stuff Nazis did...
Same if I see an Islamist supporting terrorism...
Of course, there is a difference between blaming people and accusing them of a crime...

And what about all the war crimes happening all over the world and through history? All these slaughtered people in Afghanistan under the red army, all these raped women in Germany after WWII, all these horrors in Chechnya?

How to be a man of honor in such places, when such things are happening?

And you see them giving each others medals congratulating themselves for their abilities to kill... "oh yeah, you are a ruthless man, here, take a medal..."

And can you explain how having a civilian leadership helps preventing a coup?
The only thing preventing a coup is the political environment. If you have strong and active citizens... There is no way that the military would plan a coup to take power, because the country would lose too much and no one would benefit from such loss...

If the balance of power isnt stable, a civilian leadership wouldnt be heavy enough to balance things up...

The military hold some awesome powers. The power to kill and destroy. We dont have the right to use this power lightly, we tolerate the use of such powers in life and death situation, to defend ourselves.
The military are wise enough to use this power with responsability as they will be themselves facing enemies who hold a similar power.

The civilian world is too corrupt and too focused on business, power and money to play with such things...

my 2cents...
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The lawful order at the time may be what your government deems it. If you disobey a direct order just becuase you think its wrong you will get in trouble. Militaries differ on punishment. US military will land you loss of rank and pay, possible brig time. Some country will land you a bullet in the head on the spot. And if the consequences arent enough to make you do the order, in the military you learn to obey the order first and let the reprecusions be sorted out amongst the higher ups later.

Am I saying this justifies masses of murders or exicutions no, but sometimes you read a report on a mass exicution before the whole story comes out. Is it wrong, moraly yes, its wrong to exicute people for any reason, but if ordered and if justifiable is it wrong? No probably not. Its an arguable subject and always will be.

Calling a mand who served in those actions a hero, is up to those people. Like I said before, just becuase he served in that action doesnt make him a monster like those who pulled the trigger. How do you know he wasnt called a hero becuase he pulled a man out of a burning vehicle and revived him? That in no way shape or form involved him killing another man.

And referring to the winning medals and awards for killing. Look dude, this isnt call of duty or medal of honor. This is real life. there is not a single award for number of kills during your deployment. The closest thing is a Combat Action ribbon, which is rated when you see combat during your deployment. Not that you killed someone but pretty much saying you were shot at.

A civilian in control of the military will keep the military on a leash. If you leave a General to himself with a off mind and indecent morals, they will most undoubtably attempt a coup with nothing stopping them. A single man in charge of an entire Military arm. But if you put that man on restrictions and make him answer to someone, then they no longer have that arm on their own.

If the entire military had a system of checks and balances then it can't just flit off and do its own thing. One of those checks and balances would be some, NOT ALL, but some civilian management.

Forgive me if I am not articulating the discussion very well. I understand that sometimes I can be a scatter brained individual.
 
And it takes both balls and brains to say that about its own country...
And if you look carefully, you help your country by facing the problem and admitting that there is a problem.

And I'm so tired of all these people who act like if their countries have no problems...

And in the business world, everything has a price... We took out honor, responsibility and integrity from the civilian world... They come back as political promises... But they are just words. Little more.

Think about the US government allowing bribes... Of course, they call this lobbying...

And then we have young Americans dying in to protect a piece of **** country in the Arabian Gulf like Kuweit... To prevent Iraq from taking back one of its own provinces...

And then, they have to send troops to build bases in Saudi Arabia to protect one of the most vile regimes on the world from Saddam Hussein...
And then, you have US boots walking on holy ground, pissing off extremists like Ben Laden, and then you have the 9/11, unlimited war on terror and war and more war for a century of violence...

You let your president get in bed with Saudis, and then you allow this president to give orders to the world's biggest army... And there you have it... Corruption and violence for a century...

Edit:
Shelf, about the medals... I know that. But they also give medal for operations, not? Like a medal for the success in the operation X... Correct me if I'm wrong. And I know that these medals were given by their people for their own reasons. But I believe that it's our duty to question these choices.
I personally wouldnt honor a general who gained medals in some frightful events... I know about honorable men who refused awards because they judge that they failed in their missions. And the military officiers should believe in honor and integrity. They should be light years ahead in this field.
 
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LeMask said:
And it takes both balls and brains to say that about its own country...
And if you look carefully, you help your country by facing the problem and admitting that there is a problem.

And I'm so tired of all these people who act like if their countries have no problems...

And in the business world, everything has a price... We took out honor, responsibility and integrity from the civilian world... They come back as political promises... But they are just words. Little more.

Think about the US government allowing bribes... Of course, they call this lobbying...

And then we have young Americans dying in to protect a piece of **** country in the Arabian Gulf like Kuweit... To prevent Iraq from taking back one of its own provinces...

And then, they have to send troops to build bases in Saudi Arabia to protect one of the most vile regimes on the world from Saddam Hussein...
And then, you have US boots walking on holy ground, pissing off extremists like Ben Laden, and then you have the 9/11, unlimited war on terror and war and more war for a century of violence...

You let your president get in bed with Saudis, and then you allow this president to give orders to the world's biggest army... And there you have it... Corruption and violence for a century...

Edit:
Shelf, about the medals... I know that. But they also give medal for operations, not? Like a medal for the success in the operation X... Correct me if I'm wrong. And I know that these medals were given by their people for their own reasons. But I believe that it's our duty to question these choices.
I personally wouldnt honor a general who gained medals in some frightful events... I know about honorable men who refused awards because they judge that they failed in their missions. And the military officiers should believe in honor and integrity. They should be light years ahead in this field.
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Ok well to put it so you understand. In the US military we dont just get an order from the president and then go to war. It has to go through congress and then the president, then the house, then once its agreed war is the best course of action, we employ troops. But its not like the president is an all powerful dictator.

Something you might not know, Saddam was killing massive amounts of people to take that country back as his own. Not in war, but exterminating and emplimenting bad weapons.

And as for the medals. Turning down all medals and awards can be considered just as cocky as taking them.

Edit:

I take that back about the president. He can point a finger and the Marine Corps will go fight anywere. But there are limits to how long we can stay in the country as an invading force before the President is breaking rules. Again it is a system of checks and balances.
 
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I spoke about the president, but there is the senate, the congress... In fact, all these people are in bed, directly or indirectly with some lobby or some interests groups...

Some are legitimate of course, but many arent...

You have to be very naive to underestimate the corruption power of the business world. The day you start to look for a balance between the power to take lives and money and power in the other hand... You are in already in big trouble.

no no no, dont give me arguments against Saddam. Western powers supported Saddam in the beginning and he wasnt an ice guy at that time...

The day he was buying weapons, they were happy with him... They even sent him intelligence to fight the Iranians.
And they sold him all these weapons, maybe even biological and chemical weapons... They dont care about the people he was killing.

And dont tell me that they went to Afghanistan to liberate women... nobody cares...

You have to refuse as much things as you can when you dont trust the system they are part of.
 
LeMask said:
You have to refuse as much things as you can when you dont trust the system they are part of.
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Just this right here is a offputing statement. Anyone can find flaws in everything. Especialy government. No group will stay uncorrupt forever. It may start great but it goes down eventually or may have bumps and obsticals. But those are just that, passable and solvable problems. You make it out like the world is this evil place were no good takes place.

You are also making it out that the governments of the world are out soley for the purpose of financial gain. how is that possible when most of them are broke as it is?

As for afghanistan... Im leaving that one alone. That was a dumb comment.
 
its very naive to think the armed forces are not corrupt. Even in the democratic world they are. Officers are active in the defense industry, when a new system shall be bought what do you think happens???The best system for the armed forces or will the contract for the new system go to the company, when officers have economic interests in the specific company. In a democratic society, the government cannot forbidd the military to speculate on the market as everybody else can.

G
 
well, saying that they went to stop Saddam because he was a jerk is a big joke...
No body cares about Muslim women, no body wants true democracy is the Islamic world, no body cares about the people murdered/raped/tortured by dictatorships around the world etc etc...

The people who really care are nobody. They have as much political power as a Chinese human right activist...
They are playing who is heavier with tanks and aircraft carriers...

I just want you to understand that the actual level of corruption is HUGE!!!
The people in power are total criminals... Heartless people who only think about profit and their soft behinds...

It's like taking a elite military unit and putting in power the most fat and useless man in the army at the top to give them orders...

Think about the Roman legions commanded by a corrupt senators, sending legions and legions of young men to die so he can enjoy a bribe of gold from the corrupt kings who will use the blood of these soldiers to stay in power.
Same cast, different characters.

Ghostrider, it's true, that there will be always a level of corruption, but the difference is that when you try to learn to live with corruption, you start to accept growing amounts of corruption...
While you can learn to do the necessary efforts to limit corruption in the system... And then, corruption will stay under the low bar...

Very small changes can have huge effects on the long run... Think about Portugal whose king decided that there was no interest in developing an industry... And look at the country today...

If someone important says "there is always some corruption" is like saying "we tolerate corruption, if you are corrupt, come over here."... Same thing...
 
all people have the nasty habbit to be greedy, the military is not seperated from that. To remove/reduce corruption? Hehe, good luck with that. The soldiers are political tools, an asset. These assets can be used and they are used. Sometimes you must spend your assets to get what the country wants to achieve. This has not changed since the Romans, back then it was perhaps spices, gold, silk, wine, etc. Today other gains to be taken on the soldiers graves. However, if you are a soldier and dislike this, do something else. Nothing has changed, all are greedy. It has been like this for a long time regardless of what we think about it. We cannot change it, we can reduce it perhaps. But it is similar to try to reduce ciminality to an acceptable level, what that is, even that will change over the time.
 
Ghostrider said:
all people have the nasty habbit to be greedy, the military is not seperated from that. To remove/reduce corruption? Hehe, good luck with that. The soldiers are political tools, an asset. These assets can be used and they are used. Sometimes you must spend your assets to get what the country wants to achieve. This has not changed since the Romans, back then it was perhaps spices, gold, silk, wine, etc. Today other gains to be taken on the soldiers graves. However, if you are a soldier and dislike this, do something else. Nothing has changed, all are greedy. It has been like this for a long time regardless of what we think about it. We cannot change it, we can reduce it perhaps. But it is similar to try to reduce ciminality to an acceptable level, what that is, even that will change over the time.
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I guess what I was trying to get at was that I know there is corruption. I know that it is everywere. But my biggest argument was that I think that using a system of civilians and military officials would probably be the most effective way to keep corruption down. Do I think my military is the least... Im not so sure. Some days yes, others no. Do I think there are other worse than mine, Yes, definitly yes.

I just know this LeMask. I am a Marine, I am part of the literal right arm of the president. Can he be a corrupt man? Yes. Is he? I dont know. Probably not the worst if he is. I know there have been blunders in the past. But as for right now. Your reading into the woman thing in afghanistan all wrong dude. We are there as an occupying force now. Its different from invasion.

You cant just go in and be there... When that happens it gets bad. Worse than it already is. But whatever. Ill fold on this. Others know more about politics than me. I'm just a lance that takes the orders dude.
 
Looks like we are going to have more Vietnams .....

It looks like we are going to have more Vietnams in our future .....

At least that is the feeling I have been experiencing lately. Civilian leaders are screwing the pooch MAJOR BIG TIME.

Iraq/Afghanistan ... we are STILL losing fellow military members ... and the end of the fighting still isn't in sight. It seems like the civilians STILL won't allow the military to use the tactics that would end up bringing peace to the region. It would require our forces to double/triple their operations and use HEAVY force when carrying out their operations (think Germany and Japan). It would ultimately cause more civilian casualties ...however ... as far as I am concerned, the people are either for us or they are against us ... there is NOT a third choice. People that have information about terrorists that are in their village/area that DON'T turn them in, are nothing more than collaborators in my eyes and deserve whatever treatment they receive. If it means their neighbors or family are casualties ... SO BE IT.

I realise this isn't the politically correct view .. but, I am sick and tired of Americans dying when there is NOT an end to the fighting in sight. We need to get off the pot and come out winners ..... the price is already too high in a cause that was suspect to say the least ...........

-OR -

WE JUST NEED TO LET THEM DESTROY THEMSELVES AFTER WE PULL OUR TROOPS OUT OF THEIR COUNTRIES.
 
Well Ghostrider, I cant find greed, It's like asking people to behave like angels. It wont happen.

But you can reward honor and duty, push the greed from looking for money to looking for social recognition etc... Of course, it's a very hard and long process, even impossible in the current situation of the world.

But we have news from all over the world about people doing the right thing, like some woman who got an entreprise who fired herself to not fire one of her employees.

We make choices as human beings, and sometimes the system makes the choice of corruption too easy and the choice of integrity hard and even dangerous...

Shelf, if you are a Marine, I believe that you took an oath to serve the constitution of the United States of Americas. You are not a lance that follows orders, you are a lance that follows rightful orders. How can you follow the rightful orders if you dont know your law, your rights, the constitution, the history of the country etc...?

You are not a bad guy, but when you dont question your orders, you are a bad guy, and a bad Marine...

And in your oath, I guess that there is something about fighting the enemies of your country, foreign and domestic... When was the last time were you at war against a domestic enemy?

Most of our countries dont do much against domestic criminals... Total and other french oil compagnies are making billions in piece of s*** countries like Burma, paying bribes to the generals... And we close our eyes on this stuff... To hell with laws, moral values... It's good for business... And you want the guys who are leading these countries to give you orders? To decide who you have to kill? And where you have to shed blood? And who you will call a brother in arm? I just cant...

And you are lucky in the US... You can own guns and provide for your own security. While in other countries, we are totally Dependant of our military for defense...

Chief Bones, there is a third choice. Neutral. People dont owe you s*** man! They have every right to let you die fighting YOUR enemies.
You have projects in Irak, and you dont want to let them join their Iranian brothers with democracy and you cant keep any credibility if you let the sunnites take power with the help of Saudi Arabia...

You are NOT the good guys in Iraq. The good guys are easy to identify in Iraq, it's the civilians who suffer from the fight between the others who are fighting for power, US included...

No way we could allow that... What's next? To allow you to torture civilians and rape their daughters? The hell with that. You cant ask your enemy to line up in front of your big guns with a bullseye tee shirt...
 
LeMask said:
Shelf, if you are a Marine, I believe that you took an oath to serve the constitution of the United States of Americas. You are not a lance that follows orders, you are a lance that follows rightful orders. How can you follow the rightful orders if you dont know your law, your rights, the constitution, the history of the country etc...?

You are not a bad guy, but when you dont question your orders, you are a bad guy, and a bad Marine...

And in your oath, I guess that there is something about fighting the enemies of your country, foreign and domestic... When was the last time were you at war against a domestic enemy?

Most of our countries dont do much against domestic criminals... Total and other french oil compagnies are making billions in piece of s*** countries like Burma, paying bribes to the generals... And we close our eyes on this stuff... To hell with laws, moral values... It's good for business... And you want the guys who are leading these countries to give you orders? To decide who you have to kill? And where you have to shed blood? And who you will call a brother in arm? I just cant...

And you are lucky in the US... You can own guns and provide for your own security. While in other countries, we are totally Dependant of our military for defense...

Chief Bones, there is a third choice. Neutral. People dont owe you s*** man! They have every right to let you die fighting YOUR enemies.
You have projects in Irak, and you dont want to let them join their Iranian brothers with democracy and you cant keep any credibility if you let the sunnites take power with the help of Saudi Arabia...

You are NOT the good guys in Iraq. The good guys are easy to identify in Iraq, it's the civilians who suffer from the fight between the others who are fighting for power, US included...

No way we could allow that... What's next? To allow you to torture civilians and rape their daughters? The hell with that. You cant ask your enemy to line up in front of your big guns with a bullseye tee shirt...
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Dude you remember in the other forum topic I told you, you just dont know when to quit? I was serious. Dude I backed out becuase I was steping in grounds I didnt know very much about and you and Ghostrider had deafeted my points of view but now, your stepping back on my feet.

You dont understand. You call any serviceman or woman, close minded and narrow viewed but you dont understand. We arent telling the enemy to line up with bullseyes we are telling them to actually fight us. Not hide in a crowd of woman and children and then shoot at us. And slip into the crowd becuase you will hit them. Using women and children as human shields... Or how about the ones that kill their own countrymen for telling americans where taliban hide outs are? Your right LeMask, we are the bad guys.

We only give them food, build schools and train a police force for them. We are the bad guys. the bad guys always do the right thing. So if being a marine and supporting my brothers who are fighting a war still makes me a bad guy, then I must be one evil guy.

You seem to think I am a idiot or something. Look LeMask, you can show me up in a political debate, you can say things that might frustrate me or irritate me. But dude you know nothing about being a Marine. nothing. A good marine doesnt question orders. A good marine doese what he is supposed to. Trains for that day he might be in a fire fight, the day he might go to a war and be in a battle. And if he ever gets to that point, he keeps his brothers alive. He makes sure the marine to his left and to his right alive. Becuase when your in a fight like that. When you have rounds coming at you, and your brothers are pinned down you dont question the order. That gets people killed. KILLED LeMask.

Domestic Criminals? Thats why we have a police, and if we really need it a national guard. Let me explain something to you. A Marine is a shock trooper. Do you understand that term? Probably not. We are the first in becuase we are an INVADING force, not an occupying one. We are sent to a fight to put fear in the enemy and make him surrender.

You also seem to think you know all about this oath I took. Look LeMask there is a difference between you and me. I commited five years of my life, to my country. What have you done? You dont stand in our shoes. you havent pointed a loaded rifle at a human being becuase you felt like your life was at stake. You never lost a brother at arms.

Who are you to call me a bad marine? Who are you to judge someone you never met, nor lived a day in their shoes? Who are you to judge a man who serves his country of his own free will? I dont call my leaders brothers in arms. I call my fellow marines Brothers. Period. There is nothing less than a family bond between every marine. But your not one so you wouldnt know anything about that LeMask. You want some good marines here,

Sgt. Jarret A. Kraft
Marine Pvt. Sean Stokes and
Marine Lance Corp. Heath Kramer
Cpl. Jason Dunham

Each one of them did something to keep another marine alive, and if they couldnt keep their brother alive, they still got their body out of the warzone. Those are just four right there LeMask. All four did their jobs, and didnt question a single order.
 
Same difference. Let me rephrase that. You ask poorly equipped and poorly trained men to come fight over-equipped, over-trained professional soldiers? Hmmm...

I like my bullseye idea. You know very well that if they do that, it would be like suicide... They would get wasted in two days...
Congratulation Marine, you scared the enemy and now, they hide behind women and children to shoot at you... Crazy world huh?

It's not a movie or cartoon, there is no good guys and bad guys... The situation is extremely complex. Dont make me say what I havent said, I really dont like the situation, and I dont have to chose between a Taliban or his enemies... Honestly, I dont care about the people involved in the combats... I care only about the victims of the war, the people who didnt ask for any of this...

I dont care much about you Marine, you can handle yourself... But you should care a little about the civilians who cant handle themselves who will have to live while you are hunting your enemies...

And no, you arent "just" building schools, just giving food... The civilians who give your orders are building a pro-business, pro-Western regimes in the Middle East... And they will use anything they can to reach this objective... And human blood, your blood, the blood of the civilians in the area is cheap...

And I never told you to question orders when they tell you to duck when enemy fire is incoming... Just think about a conscience check when you can. That's it. Show no mercy to your enemy... Confusion will only get you killed. But just be aware that you are trusting people you dont really know to tell you who is the enemy...

I didnt call you a bad Marine. I dont know you sir. But you are a citizen first before being a Marine, and a human being first. And I'm sorry, but I know that you went through training and that they told you that you are part of a brotherhood, a big family and yada yada yada... All of this was made to make you a better military unit.

And if you cared really about your brothers in arms, you would make sure that there is a good reason to send them to war...
They didnt make you what you are today to rob banks, but to bring down criminals...
 
LeMask said:
Same difference. Let me rephrase that. You ask poorly equipped and poorly trained men to come fight over-equipped, over-trained professional soldiers? Hmmm...

I like my bullseye idea. You know very well that if they do that, it would be like suicide... They would get wasted in two days...
Congratulation Marine, you scared the enemy and now, they hide behind women and children to shoot at you... Crazy world huh?

It's not a movie or cartoon, there is no good guys and bad guys... The situation is extremely complex. Dont make me say what I havent said, I really dont like the situation, and I dont have to chose between a Taliban or his enemies... Honestly, I dont care about the people involved in the combats... I care only about the victims of the war, the people who didnt ask for any of this...

I dont care much about you Marine, you can handle yourself... But you should care a little about the civilians who cant handle themselves who will have to live while you are hunting your enemies...

And no, you arent "just" building schools, just giving food... The civilians who give your orders are building a pro-business, pro-Western regimes in the Middle East... And they will use anything they can to reach this objective... And human blood, your blood, the blood of the civilians in the area is cheap...

And I never told you to question orders when they tell you to duck when enemy fire is incoming... Just think about a conscience check when you can. That's it. Show no mercy to your enemy... Confusion will only get you killed. But just be aware that you are trusting people you dont really know to tell you who is the enemy...

I didnt call you a bad Marine. I dont know you sir. But you are a citizen first before being a Marine, and a human being first. And I'm sorry, but I know that you went through training and that they told you that you are part of a brotherhood, a big family and yada yada yada... All of this was made to make you a better military unit.

And if you cared really about your brothers in arms, you would make sure that there is a good reason to send them to war...
They didnt make you what you are today to rob banks, but to bring down criminals...
Click to expand...

Im going to respond with this LeMask. You dont tell me about what being a marine is like. Or what my job as a marine is. You are not one, so you dont rate to tell me what I am or what I should be doing. You also dont rate to tell me what you think they tell me I am or am not LeMask.

I know that every marine is a brother. And we would do anything to get eachother out and back alive. So Im leaving this debate before I say things that will get me banned.

You have never pointed a weapon at another man for fear of your own life. You have not spent a day in military life, you know nothing of the things we do or go through. Until you do, you dont rate to tell one who has and does what they should or shouldnt do.
 
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