Why can't Taiwanese people accept their Chinese heritage?

As I posted earlier, I have said that the terminology or the comparison is bizaare. I am very well aware what is happening here.
 
lol, ok i wont throw running dog or paper tiger at those countries, or dont use animal terms at all,


" 8) i guess ill use my lil red book's phases another day 8) "


anyway, in my mind no doubt taiwan is a part of china, however you want to comment, taiwan is always a part of china

and im not talking about governmental or politidcal terms here, so do you agree, then, that taiwan is a part of china?
 
No country has the right to enforce its doctrine on others by saying that what was in the past should be implemented today.

Taiwanese dispute should only be settled with diplomatic terms and if locals there are eager to join China then it should be annexed (and US back-off) but if not then using means of force to implement authority is not good.

Even Saddam claimed after conquering Kuwait that it is was the part of Iraqi territory during WWII era and it should be annexed but what happened that Kuwaities resisted and world gathered to punish Iraq for its decision.

Also, US position in Taiwan is right (if Taiwanese don't want to join China) but if they do then (Chinese position is justified).
 
Urbanboy, how is my statement racist?
If it was racism then I should also have the same attitude towards the Taiwanese and Koreans of Chinese descent (oh wait that's me). If you really need to find a racist you might as well look yourself in the mirror because there is no reason any of the neighboring countries should accept Chinese power.
 
Urbanboy said:
lol, ok i wont throw running dog or paper tiger at those countries, or dont use animal terms at all,

" 8) i guess ill use my lil red book's phases another day 8) "
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It is appreciated, and bear in mind that you're keeping a very civil and decent tone in this discussion. Its just something that I thought I'd give you to consider: The fact that China likes to belittle many of their neighbors for being closer to the USA than to China. I would like to suggest to you that friendly relationships with non-Asian nations does not constitute a betrayal nor treason nor any crime at all. I don't know if you can truly see what I mean though. The Qing Dynasty of 1800 AD -1900 AD had many of the same attitudes towards the West and it only lead to their downfall.


anyway, in my mind no doubt taiwan is a part of china, however you want to comment, taiwan is always a part of china

and im not talking about governmental or politidcal terms here, so do you agree, then, that taiwan is a part of china?
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As I've said, I've yet to see someone effectively prove to me that Taiwan is a part of the Peoples Republic of China. I've yet to see proof that Taiwan does not have the right to decide the matter for itself. I'm not going to offer a prediction as to what that decision might be. That is not the point.

In the analogy of Ms. Taiwan and her island, she was used and handed from one master to another, but never actually gave any consent to any of them. She was just too weak to stop them. That she was owned by those varying masters is not in dispute. But at the beginning she owned herself and her island. Obviously, the majority of the people left on the island in that analogy were sired by Chinese. Eight out of nine of her children were. That constitutes a majority of them and that is a substantial tie to China. But who's right is it to decide who owns her and her children? In real life situations, there is law and order and no civilized system of laws is going to count the fact that because someone owned someone as a slave, that they have a right to take them back by force.

Additionally, it was mentioned that Japan waged an "illegal war of agression" against China in the Sino-Japanese War, which handed control of Taiwan over to the Japanese. But if Japan's war against China in the Sino-Japanese War was in any way illegal, then we must conclude that "taking whatever you want by force" and "unprovoked aggression" are wrong and illegal too. So by the same standard, was China's conquest and annexation Taiwan "legal" to begin with? Was it legal to pass her around like a spoil of war?

The thing about Taiwan's situation that is unique is that nobody actually controls Taiwan. Taiwan controls Taiwan. They have their own system and their own everything. They function no differently than any Independent Nation on the planet, yet nothing "official" has ever been made of it. The do share a common language and ancestry with China, but language and ancestry do not always draw the borders on the map anywhere else in the world, so what makes China special in this regard?

If Hainan Island declared its independence then that would be another matter entirely. The are unquestionably under the control and part of the People's Republic of China. That island declaring independence would constitute an insurrection and rebellion against the established government. But none of that applies to Taiwan. Only one thing: They still officially recognize themselves as part of China (under the one land, two systems idealogy.) So if they declare Independence, then which government did they rebel against and which government would need to put down that insurrection and rebellion?
 
I think that China should leave Taiwan alone simply because they can kiss any and all future economic growth goodbye with an invasion. Look at some point you got to put your pocket before your pride, and that is the only reason China wants to invade Taiwan. What else will China gain if they do invade. Taiwan has no real natural resources. The business relationships between taiwan and China, which benefits both countires would collapse. Other foreign business in China will pull out due to the war's instability. American and the UN will put economic sanctions on China. This plus the expense of the invasion would make China's economic boom go bust. This will most likely cause revolt and rebellion within China. Not to mention the loss of face if Taiwan was able to repel a chinese invasion. I think it is all sabre rattling, the Chinese are too smart to invade. Everything to lose and nothing to gain.
 
I think it is all sabre rattling, the Chinese are too smart to invade. Everything to lose and nothing to gain.
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oh no, you foiled our plans



but you know what, this new anti-session law basically lays down a new rule of the game, and that is if taiwan becomes independent, then war will occur


this is all taiwan's decision, like do they wanted to be reclaimed with joyce or independency with force
 
Urbanboy said:
this is all taiwan's decision, like do they wanted to be reclaimed with joyce or independency with force
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China lays down the rules and imposes it on Taiwan (and now calling it Taiwan's decision). The only thing China demonstrated consistently is the use (or abuse) of force. There is a reason why Taiwanese fear and refuse to be governed by Chinese.
 
Urbanboy said:
but you know what, this new anti-session law basically lays down a new rule of the game, and that is if taiwan becomes independent, then war will occur
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It really nothing more and nothing less than China putting in writing the policy that they've been following all along.

Mikey said:
Look at some point you got to put your pocket before your pride, and that is the only reason China wants to invade Taiwan.
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Well, here's the problem with that. In East Asia, shame and honor and the associated pride coming from that are huge. Beyond huge. The possibility of shame and losing face will virtually always trump any and all rational thought. This is why you have an extremely long list of territories that are claimed by two nations, but neither nation will back down and both nations seem more than happy to risk all manner of war, death and destruction over them.

Some say this is a good attribute. In this case, its the number one reason that Southeast Asia constantly stands on the brink of catastrophic war.
 
lol, i thought it was east asia we were talking about here, hey dont leave out the koreans and japanese as well


the situation with taiwan is that it is currently ruled by a pro-independency government, something that does jeopardize the relations


id rather have good ol kmt rule taiwan
 
Urbanboy said:
lol, i thought it was east asia we were talking about here, hey dont leave out the koreans and japanese as well


the situation with taiwan is that it is currently ruled by a pro-independency government, something that does jeopardize the relations


id rather have good ol kmt rule taiwan
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I agree that the Nationalist Government KMT should rule Taiwan, because they have no desire to separate, unlike Chen Sui Bean!
 
Urbanboy said:
lol, i thought it was east asia we were talking about here, hey dont leave out the koreans and japanese as well
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Believe me, I'm including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam and everyone else in the neighborhood in that.

id rather have good ol kmt rule taiwan
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That's one thing I'm unclear on. Isn't the Independence Movement working within the current policial system (which derived from the KMT) and more or less just asking for a name change for the Republic of China? Or are they seeking to establish a new country with a new Constitution and Government?

Bear in mind that I'm of the firm opinion that if China isn't wanting to invade so long as they do not declare themselves "not part of China" then the people of Taiwan are being stupid.
 
you dont even know the differences??? my god


ok, kmt is a nationlistic pro one china political party with interests in the rebuilding of the kmt forces and in mainlanders

theparty chenshuibien in is another thing, they wanted what the taiwanese wanted, maybe not the mainlanders on taiwan but mostly towards the natives, it is about independence

up to now we had pretty good agreements that there can only be one chian, but since this SOB chenshuibien came along and the kmt voted out we have this huge probelm wiht TI

personally the kmt is actually not a bad party to being with, i dont see how they are treating the taiwanese so differently one from another, and i think they shouldn've allowed such voting since lee deng hui is a traitor
 
Actually, I was referring to the political system that the KMT established when Chaing KaiShek moved them to Taiwan. I wasn't talking about a political party. Someone needs to be flogged for naming their political party that, it opens the door for unnecessary confusion.

So the political system that evolved from what was established by the KMT when they arrived ... isn't the current system of government an evolved form of that same political structure and government?
 
So the political system that evolved from what was established by the KMT when they arrived ... isn't the current system of government an evolved form of that same political structure and government?
THE CURRENT RULING REBEL PARTY IS DIFFERENT FROM KMT

KMT ORGINALLY UNTIL THE 90S WERE A STRICT-DICTATORSHIP TYPE OF GOVERNMENT, ALOT WORSE THAN CHINA IN WHICH THEY EVEN CONTROLLED THE WAY PEOPLE SPEAK

THE CURRENT RULING REBEL PARTY IS ANOTHER THING, IT EVOLVED FROM THE INTERESTS OF TAIWANESE

SINCE LEE DENG HUI CAME , HE ADVISES DEMOCRACY AND GAVE ALOT MORE INTERESTS TOWARDS TAIWANESE AND EASED POLITICAL RELATIONS WITH JAPAN

PROBABLY CUZ HES TAIWANESE AND HES A HAN JIAN( JAPANESE GRUOPIE/TRAITOR OF CHINESE), I CAN SUPPORT THAT BECAUSE HE LOVES JAPAN AND WENT TO SCHOOL THERE WITH STATEMENTS SUCH AS I LOVE JAPAN AND JAPAN IS THE BEST COUNTRY BLAH BLAH BLAH
 
Okay, I think you see where there was plenty of room for confusion there. Anyways, that clarifies it somewhat (Zyca can give his version and I think everbody can then have a nice complete perspective).

As far as Japan is concerned ... it may be difficult to see I suppose. China has a lot of good reasons for not liking Japan. But they have many admirable traits. In terms of technological industries and manufacturing, they're the best in the world in numerous categories. Better than the USA in many instances. They have a powerful economy. Very powerful, considering their population. They have gotten capitalism and economics right. They're one of the few economic powerhouses on Earth that is smart enough to grab great new ideas. It was Swiss people who invented digital watches, yet the Swiss manufacturers more or less called the idea nonsense and told the inventors to bugger off. They went to Japan and Japan ran with the idea. Lean Manufacturing was a concept developed by an American. American manufacturers never even gave the concept half a chance. Japan did. Now, if you want a dependable automobile (for instance), odds are your buying Japanese ... or European (largely because they copied Japan). CEO's of US manufacturers still are too bullheaded and arrogant to bother seeing the obvious: Someone came up with a good idea that could help them make a better product. By being extremely openminded, Japan has used other nations ideas first and better than anyone. That is an admirable trait.
 
YA ADMIRABLE, CHINESE HAVE A WEAKNESS, AND IS THAT THOUGH WE HAVE STICKED TOGETHER FOR WARS AND WHEN OUR COUNTRY IS IN CRISIS, WE PRETTY MUCH ARE EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES, THOUGH ITS MORE OF A UNSPOKEN TRUTH THAT OCCURS

THINGS LIKE FAKE PRODDUCTS, CONTRABAND AND COPY RIGHTS STUFF REFLECTS THIS KIND OF THINKING FROM THE AVERAGE CHINESE, IT SEEMS WE SEE OURSELVES AS TOO SMART TO HELP OTHERS AND WE KEEP PROFITS TO OURSELVES.

IT IS WEIRD HOW THIS WORKS, BUT THATS HOW MY MIND WORKS TOO. THIS IS ONE WEAKNESS THATS GONING TO PROVE DIFFCULT TO CURB LATER IN TEH FUTURE


- THIS WAS A CRITISM I TYPED FROM AN ARTICLE I JUST READ ABOUT, APPARENTLY THIS IS TRUE
 
The contrast is at least interesting. China seems to still have the "Middle Kingdom on the brain." By that, I mean that there is still a strong sentiment that nothing outside China is useful to China and everything from China is better than anything the rest of the world has. It seems less prevalent now that it once was, certainly. Yet there seems to be this strange sentiment that, "Someday we'll once again be the Middle Kingdom. All the world will once again bow before us and we can then return to our comfortable attitude toward the outside world: 'We are better than all other nations and there is nothing useful that the rest of the world can offer China.' "

The Boxer Rebellion and Opium War and a long list of other events were the wakeup calls that China and her government missed completely. Even worse, they brutally subdued anyone promoting the idea of "Westernizing" or "modernizing" in any fashion. After getting pumelled time and time again, the Qing Dynasty crumbles and Sun Yat-sen rises to power. Sun works to try to modernize. He, Chaing KaiShek and Mao Zedong all had one helluva fight to try to get the Chinese people to accept the idea of modernizing. Now contrast that with Japan, who very quickly recognized that they were WAY behind. So what did they do? They made the determination that they would adopt Western Culture as the means to surpassing the West in every way possible. Beating them at their own game, in essence. That attitude has worked to make Japan one of the most modern and technologically advanced nations in the world. There have been many wrong steps, but the end result can only be called a brilliant success, overall.

So my main point: Why cry "traitor" at Taiwan for adopting the things that made the Western Powers truly powerful? Why call names at all? Would it not be better to learn from them?
 
If anyone is interested (history of DPP):

http://203.73.100.105/english/pub/LIT_2.asp

Traitor is not a term appropriate for Lee, although he's often extremely pro-Japan. He empowered people (and in term empowered Taiwanese because they are the majority) and opened the gate for CSB's presidency in 2000 and 2004 (starting 1996 people get to vote for presidents directly). To me, he's the most significant figure in Taiwan's road to democracy. From his youth and the education he went through I am sure most can understand why he's pro-Japan and anti-China (pretty much like why every Chinese is anti-Japan and pro-China). Like I said he's sometimes too pro-Japan to my liking, but to think that he SHOULD be Chinese just becuase Chinese think that Taiwanese are all Chinese and then to attack him as a traitor is too zealously pro-China, which is understandable if you are Chinese I guess.
 
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