Why can't Taiwanese people accept their Chinese heritage? - Page 4




 
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Boots
 
April 1st, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: Thunder...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
Thunder, everytime the issue gets deeper, you choose the time and place to call quit. Nice move!
No, I believe that it is obvious to anyone that I could go on until doomsday. The point is, going into the whole Taiwan debate again only ever leads to a locked thread. I could respond to each item, but what is the point? Is there any way that you will ever somehow be convinced? Ask yourself if it is possible for you to change your views on the topic.
April 1st, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Ah...


you ask me if I can change my view, yet you don't do the same. You want me to walk thousands of steps to meet you but you are unwilling to walk my path. It is like you are always right and sure yet others cant be the same. I look at things from China and United Stated's point of view while you hold yours solelly on the States.

Yes I will keep asking questions on claims you have while you are welcome to do the same.
April 1st, 2005  
Zyca
 
 

Topic: Re: Thunder...


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
No, I believe that it is obvious to anyone that I could go on until doomsday. The point is, going into the whole Taiwan debate again only ever leads to a locked thread. I could respond to each item, but what is the point? Is there any way that you will ever somehow be convinced? Ask yourself if it is possible for you to change your views on the topic.
You're absolutely right. The opinions are at the two extremes and neither will convince the other to believe otherwise. Let me just go back to history for my conclusion in this discussion:

China has 5000 years of history, but none of its ruling entity did. How long each ruler took control of China is listed in the history. And the territory of each ruling entity can also be traced. If my memory serves me right, the territory did not shape alike, it either expanded or shrunk from time to time. Changing of ruling entities did not grant automatic unity, as a matter of fact changing of ruling entities did not grant much of anything when it comes to territory. Pure Chinese people, historically, are more easily controlled because of their belief in obedience. The others, however, weren't as quick to take the same path. Emperors had to conquer and re-conquer lands and after they died their sons had to repeat the same things. What one ruling entity held did not translate to legitimate ownership for the next. Sometimes things happen differently, but throughout the Chinese history, more often than not the territory looked different.

So, by history, China's own history, it's not unclear that when the ruling entity changes, so did the territory. There is a core of people who consistently supported the central Chinese ruling entity (probably because the capitals are more than often built in a smaller region), but there are also a flock of people, living close to the Chinese border, refuse to accept the ruling when it's not best for them. Today, those people still exist, unwilling to accept the ruling of Chinese. Ethnicity played some role, beliefs were huge though.

Did Taiwan belong to China? At one point in time in history, yes, Taiwan briefly belonged to the Ch'ing dynasty officially (this will lead to arguments, but according to Ch'ing's third emperor: Taiwan, although historically not a part of China, will be accepted as part of our territory under our first emperor's power) after Ch'ing defeated Ming's loyalists. Then came the Sino-Japanese War, where Ch'ing China ceded Taiwan to Japan, effectively ending China's ownership.

After WWII, Japan surrendered Taiwan. KMT, with partial control of mainland, took control of Taiwan and was recognized as China (ROC). What came next I believe everyone still remembers well: communists defeated nationalists, and KMT fled to Taiwan and established a government there. Still recognized as China, KMT ruled Taiwan. Then PRC became the only China in the UN; Taiwan, now unrecognized by most in the global community, went on silently with the help of the US and moved forward to evolved into a democratic, independent nation.

It is not hard to see why PRC's claim of Taiwan is not accepted by most Taiwanese. First, Taiwanese are not pure Chinese, whether in ethnicity or beliefs; Second, Taiwan enjoyed sovereignty for far too long to accept the ruling of another entity not of people's choice; Third, PRC had not in the past shown Taiwanese how their lives would get better (SARS outbreak reaction, 921 earthquake reaction, anti-secession law by the Chinese to name a few). There are reasons why Taiwanese don't want to be ruled by Chinese. What's different in today's world is that there's a sense of global community, to maintain fragile peace and ensure continuous improvements in people's lives. Opinions will be divided, but I firmly believe that PRC has no rights to claim Taiwan part of its ruling territory. PRC had never ruled Taiwan; and using Ch'ing dynasty's territory to define today's Chinese territory is only for convenience.

http://www.artsmia.org/arts-of-asia/...maps/index.cfm

Territory change throughout history. Different ruling entities decide whether to conquer more lands or not. Right now, PRC is set on invading and conquering Taiwan. This is not something right, or wrong, or legitimate; This is just what the present day PRC China has decided to do: Conquer. China is successful in building up the military might to flex its muscle and do as it wishes, but that's different from claiming that Taiwan is legitimately part of China. Art of sugar-coating is mastered by China, I hope more will realize this.
--
Boots
April 1st, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Zyca...


Good writing and I am not going to discredit your beliefs in any form. However, I have questions or statements:

No matter how many rulling parties China had. China's history are relative instead of absolute. Many knows that TW was ceded with gun point. Japan did not own TW. TW was still China's territory. That is why Japan surrender TW back to China. For example, you walk into my house and force me to give you the title of my house and a signed deed to your name. Will this be recognized as a legitimate deal?

Pure Chinese or pure blood Chinese-if you want to create seperation of some sort? Is there a such thing with 5000 years of history of the making? Chinese is mingled with Hakkar, Mongols, Muslims, Korean Tribes, and other ethnic groups. They are all different. Should they be considered anything other than Chinese? Different beliefs? You mean political, local beliefs, or religion?
April 1st, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: Boobies...


Oh, what the hell ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
No matter how many rulling parties China had. China's history are relative instead of absolute. Many knows that TW was ceded with gun point. Japan did not own TW. TW was still China's territory. That is why Japan surrender TW back to China. For example, you walk into my house and force me to give you the title of my house and a signed deed to your name. Will this be recognized as a legitimate deal?
You are quite correct, Taiwan's annexation by China was certainly by gunpoint. They were never given a choice in the matter after all. There was the alterior motive on the part of the Manchu Dynasty to 1.) Rid themselves of the last vestiges of Ming resistence (to which Taiwan was an unwilling partner) and 2.) After the Dutch held it as a colony, the Manchus saw it as a threat and seized the island in an effort to keep the European colonial powers out of Asia. Then later, much like using a slave in bartering, China hands it over to Japan as one of the concessions after their defeat in the Sino-Japanese War. To the victor goes the spoils. Later on, in 1945, Taiwan is handed back to the Republic of China as yet another concession, this time of a Japanese defeat.

Quote:
Pure Chinese or pure blood Chinese-if you want to create seperation of some sort? Is there a such thing with 5000 years of history of the making? Chinese is mingled with Hakkar, Mongols, Muslims, Korean Tribes, and other ethnic groups. They are all different. Should they be considered anything other than Chinese? Different beliefs? You mean political, local beliefs, or religion?
"Pure Chinese" is Pure Nonsense, if you ask me, yet it is still used as an argument on the Chinese side of the argument of the Taiwan question. "Those people are ethnic Chinese, so they have to be ruled by China!" Might as well try to define "Pure Americans" while your at it.

Quote:
you ask me if I can change my view, yet you don't do the same
I have nothing to lose in changing my mind but the arguments that I've seen presented have been a lot of contradictions and never a very solid case. I honestly think that the world is a better place the moment Taiwan reunites with China completely. Not better for the Taiwanese people necessarily, but the world is better because there is no longer a keg of gunpowder in Southeast Asia ready to blow up any second. Well ... it would make one less anyways.

But nobody has managed to offer a convincing case as to why Taiwan and its people, against their own will, must bow to PRC rulership. Nobody has convinced me that China has a right to demand this. Believe me, I'm quite convincable. I used to believe that Taiwan declaring its Independence was a fine idea. I no longer believe that it would be a wise course of action on their part.
April 1st, 2005  
Zyca
 
 

Topic: Re: Zyca...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
Good writing and I am not going to discredit your beliefs in any form. However, I have questions or statements:
Well before I proceed to try my best and give you my 2 cents, I respect that you didn't turn this into a zealous debate between who's right or who's wrong. I've engaged in those battles before and the end result had always been warnings from the mods and threads thrown into the hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
No matter how many rulling parties China had. China's history are relative instead of absolute. Many knows that TW was ceded with gun point. Japan did not own TW. TW was still China's territory. That is why Japan surrender TW back to China. For example, you walk into my house and force me to give you the title of my house and a signed deed to your name. Will this be recognized as a legitimate deal?
The one thing that stays unchanged is the fact that everytime ruling entities changed in China, territory changed. The example of house robbing of yours has a twist that we shouldn't leave out: you initially robbed that house off of someone else, and claimed it your own, but you don't actually live there. Now I come to you and hold you at gunpoint, you agree that in exchange of my sparing your life, you'll give me that house that you don't live in... is it a legitmate deal? It is a deal that you agreed to, you could've given me other houses you own and negotiate to save this one, but no you'd rather give me this house. When you robbed the house from the people who lived there, was that a legitmate deal? As I see it, there's no legitmacy in all these. The people who live in the house are the only victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
Pure Chinese or pure blood Chinese-if you want to create seperation of some sort? Is there a such thing with 5000 years of history of the making? Chinese is mingled with Hakkar, Mongols, Muslims, Korean Tribes, and other ethnic groups. They are all different. Should they be considered anything other than Chinese? Different beliefs? You mean political, local beliefs, or religion?
I guess before I can answer this, I must know how you define the term Chinese; We might not be looking at it from the same perspective. Is a Korean, who was born and raised in Korea and his parents and grandparents have all been born in Korea, who gave up his nationality and became a citizen of China considered Chinese to you? If you do not see a separation in that, then I guess your view of Chinese is everyone who's a citizen of China. In that case, Taiwanese are definitely not Chinese; If you look at that person and think he's Korean, then Taiwanese are still not Chinese because there is a distinction in the bloodline itself. If you look at the person and acknowledges that he's Chinese but not pure Chinese, then we are on the same page (which also describes why I think Taiwanese have roots in mainland China, but are not pure Chinese but mixed). In my mind, Taiwanese people were one time under Chinese rule briefly and unwillingly. Depending on how you look at the term Chinese, some differences or similarities may be magnified. Oh and when I say different beliefs, it includes politics, religions, family values, languages, etc.

Once again, enthnicity is not a claim to anything...

I know this has been a sensitive topic to many includin myself, I took a long break from the "debates" I had not too long ago and now I am getting ready for another break. godofthunder is absolutely right when he said there won't be an agreement on this issue, but once in a while I just felt like typing a load of mumbo jumbo to kill time
April 1st, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Thunder...


I enjoyed what you wrote actually. Yes, I actually agree with what you said about the negativities with "union against the will". And I don't believe in attacking TW to gain union at present political stage. I certainly hope things can change for the better with the two.

However, I don't believe in argument that the Japanese annexation of TW by gun point was a legal transaction. If the transaction was deemed unfair and illegal, Japanese surrendering of TW back to China was a must, unconditionally.

"To the victor goes the spoils"? Even the war was illegal and unprovoked? Don't you think China/Chinese are being short-changed here in the contemporary history? Would you allow the US goes into other countries and claim everything American under the name of "to the victor goes the spoil"?

Once again, would you and others honor the deal between you and me if I forced you relinquishing your properties under gun point, right after a big fist fights between us? Would the law allow such deal served without exercising prejudice?

To the argument of Chinese and non-Chinese:
If the land belonged to China, wouldn't you call the people live on it Chinese, with ethnic back ground? I would certainly call people who live on Hawaii, Americans, with Pacific/Islander ethnicity.

Finally, if TW maintained status quote, not claim independence, there wouldn't be any threat of military actions. And there won't be any force of BOWING to Beijing like you mentioned.

Question in general: Are any of you sure of majority of TW want to claim independence? I can see the group who want to claim independence and the nations who support it. But, are foreign nations willing to see TW people whom don't want independence but a unification. Would you represent the welfare of this group of people as well as the pro-independence group?
April 1st, 2005  
Zyca
 
 

Topic: Re: Thunder...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
I enjoyed what you wrote actually. Yes, I actually agree with what you said about the negativities with "union against the will". And I don't believe in attacking TW to gain union at present political stage. I certainly hope things can change for the better with the two.

However, I don't believe in argument that the Japanese annexation of TW by gun point was a legal transaction. If the transaction was deemed unfair and illegal, Japanese surrendering of TW back to China was a must, unconditionally.

"To the victor goes the spoils"? Even the war was illegal and unprovoked? Don't you think China/Chinese are being short-changed here in the contemporary history? Would you allow the US goes into other countries and claim everything American under the name of "to the victor goes the spoil"?

Once again, would you and others honor the deal between you and me if I forced you relinquishing your properties under gun point, right after a big fist fights between us? Would the law allow such deal served without exercising prejudice?

To the argument of Chinese and non-Chinese:
If the land belonged to China, wouldn't you call the people live on it Chinese, with ethnic back ground? I would certainly call people who live on Hawaii, Americans, with Pacific/Islander ethnicity.

Finally, if TW maintained status quote, not claim independence, there wouldn't be any threat of military actions. And there won't be any force of BOWING to Beijing like you mentioned.

Question in general: Are any of you sure of majority of TW want to claim independence? I can see the group who want to claim independence and the nations who support it. But, are foreign nations willing to see TW people whom don't want independence but a unification. Would you represent the welfare of this group of people as well as the pro-independence group?
Oops I just realized that this wasn't directed at me sorry Thunder. But I guess since I already wrote it, what the heck, I won't erase everything I already wrote. Sorry Boobies for jumping in between, didn't mean to be rude.

I think it's very refreshing and exciting to hear different opinions other than 'nuke Taiwan to the stone age' from someone in China. It was fun.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what the Japanese did. But more importantly, what did the Japanese do differently from the Chinese when it comes to occupying Taiwan against the will of people who live there? My point is: Taiwanese people suffered. In all the power games, the only losers are the people who live on the island. And just as when the Taiwanese people gained the opportunity to make a future for themselves, they are again threatened of a new occupier... that's what I meant, nothing was legitmate, only the people who live there suffer.

As to your last question, the answer is quite simple: Taiwanese people fear China's military threat; Taiwan is in reality already independent in every way except for world recognition, people on the island favor peace over a possible war triggered by formal independence declaration. Would Taiwanese people want formal independence and gain world recognition, if China OKs it? I don't know, the only way to find out is if Mr. Hu annouces that 'Taiwan can either pick to declare independence or unite with us willingly, we will gladly support either decision made by the majortiy of Taiwanese people'.

In my opinion... judging from the high percentage of people who opposed the anti-secession law (different independent surverys concluded that more than 85% opposed it), outcome is probably a birth of another nation called Taiwan.
April 1st, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
independence will bring about war, you guys oughta know that

the smart thing to do is just to stay the same, don't do anything harsh


its simple, if taiwanese leaders respect their citizens and wish for the best, dont speak about independece, or else a almost volunterly retake of taiwan from rebels will occur.


well on the whole taiwanese are kind people like zyca here who doesnt go and flame others *coughs without solid proofs or good combacks
April 2nd, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: Thunder...


Firstly, I'm glad the discussion has not gone straight to hell into a flamewar. That indicates that people are keeping their emotions under control I think. That is a very positive step.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
"To the victor goes the spoils"? Even the war was illegal and unprovoked? Don't you think China/Chinese are being short-changed here in the contemporary history? Would you allow the US goes into other countries and claim everything American under the name of "to the victor goes the spoil"?
Precisely, but you must have missed the spin I put on that. China was the agressor to begin with. I'm not talking about the Sino-Japanese War at all. I'm talking a couple hundred years earlier where the late Ming seized control of Taiwan. Subsequently, the Qing Dynasty also invaded and took over. Did anyone bother asking the Taiwanese people if they were okay with all of this? No they did not.

Quote:
Once again, would you and others honor the deal between you and me if I forced you relinquishing your properties under gun point, right after a big fist fights between us? Would the law allow such deal served without exercising prejudice?
Your analogy is incomplete and doesn't really tell the whole story though. This addresses the rest of what you said as well.

So here is my more complete analogy: (Sorry its so damn long.)

We have a large city named Planet Earth built around a large lake. Near the western shore of the lake, there is a small island with a single home on it. This is the home of Ms Taiwan. She is off on her own, but enjoys interacting with the Housing Complex that is nearby, called the China Village. There are lots of people living there, and she likes her neighbors, even borrowing some of their good ideas for her own use. She even had an illegitimate child from a brief romance with one of the residents of the China Village housing complex. The entire China Village complex and all houses in it are currently owned by a rich landlord named Mr. Ming.

One day, a man by the name Mr Spain (from the far shore of the lake) shows up in a boat. Mr Spain quickly starts acting like he owns the place, and Ms Taiwan is quite nervous. At that very moment another man in a boat shows up. Mr Dutch. Mr Dutch and Mr Spain fight, Mr Dutch wins the fight and Mr Spain leaves in his boat, never to return. Mr Dutch then claims owership to Ms Taiwan's little island. He breaks down the door to the house, rapes Ms. Taiwan and claims he owns her too. So she becomes the slave-wife of Mr Dutch.

Meanwhile, over in China Village, things violent events were developing. A certain powerful mob boss by the name of Mr. Qing (leader of the Manchu gang of Tatars) comes to China Village with his band of thugs. They come to China Village and take ownership by force. The go to Mr. Mings house and kill his family, but Mr Ming manages to escape alive. Mr Qing then proceeds to also sieze the surrounding housing areas of Sinkiiang Community Housing, Tibetan Acres and Mongolia Estates.

Mr. Ming flees for his life. In desperation, he flees to Ms Taiwan's island. He then makes a fateful decision. He breaks into her house, then fights and kills Mr Dutch. He rapes Ms Taiwan, declares the house and island is his and that she is now his wife-slave. She even has a child from Mr Ming.

Mr Ming tries to use the house and island as a safe place to try to organize his former tenants to fight for him so he can have his property back from Mr Qing. His efforts meet with little success, but they are noticed by Mr Qing and his Manchu thugs. He and several of his gang come over to the island, and kill Mr Ming. Mr Qing then rapes Ms Taiwan, claims her as his slave-concubine (so not a full wife), and declares himself owner of the little island. Mr Qing, with all of his properties, mostly ignores the island but sends one of his thugs to teach his new slave-concubine how to read and write and fixes up her house. He even adds onto the house. Later, he even sires four children on her.

On the mainland, Mr Qing has the walls around China Village, Sinkiiang Community Housing, Tibetan Acres and Mongolia Estates all knocked down and builds a new wall around it all, but leaves the names of the housing complexes as they are. Mr Qings Manchu thugs move in and settle down in houses of their own. The whole supercomlpex settles down for a long while. The Manchu gang takes the time to enjoy the spoils of their conquests. Ms Taiwan and the other residents eventually recover from their ordeal and accept their new situation. The start referring to the whole combined complex as "China".

A few years later, a new powerful gang emerges to rival the Manchu Gang. The Japan gang rapidly becomes the most feared gang in the whole neighborhood. Mr Qing, fearing that the Japan Gang wants to take the island, upgrades Ms Taiwan from slave-concubine to slave-wife. The Japan Gang pick a fight with Mr Qing and his Manchu gang and beat them up pretty badly. The Japan gang demands that Mr Qing give over the Ms Taiwan's tiny island as well as other properties. Mr Qing agrees to the demands.

Mr Tokogawa, leader of the Japan Gang comes to the island, breaks down the door, rapes Ms Taiwan, claims her as his own slave-concubine, and declares himself owner of the little island. She has a child from him as well. Mr Tokogawa, fixes up the house to be even nicer than it was under Mr Qing and he adds several rooms onto Ms Taiwan's house. Once again, she adapts to the violent change in her life and settles down in her new role as slave-concubine of Mr Tokogawa, leader of the Japan Gang.

Meanwhile, back in the China supercomplex, Mr Qing is rapidly becoming unpopular in the China housing supercomplex and his Manchu Gang has grown weak, and other powerful gangs from distant parts of the city of Planet Earth pester and embarass them. One of the residents of China, a certain Mr Yat-Sen, with the help of his friends Mr Zedong and Mr Kaishek, organize the a uprising in the community. Even most of Manchu Gang join them. They kill Mr Qing and what few supporters he has left. Mr Yat-Sen proceeds to set up a system with Mr Yat-Sen as the official owner, but each resident as part owner of their own house as well.

Mr Yat-Sen dies unexpectedly. Mr KaiShek and Mr Zedong have a long series of fights over who should replace Mr Yat-Sen. Mr KaiShek wins out, and Mr Zedong goes into hiding. While Mr KaiShek begins cleaning up some of the mess from their fights, while continue to hunt for Mr Zedong. While busy with all of that, the Japan Gang return, bigger and stronger than ever. They completely overrun almost all of the China housing supercomplex and many of Mr KaiShek's supporters are killed. Other enemies of the Japan Gang from distant parts of the city, in conjunction with KaiShek and with the help of Mr Zedong too ... combine to beat them and force them to withdraw from the half destroyed China housing complex.

The defeated Japan Gang is forced to sign over Ms Taiwan and her island to KaiShek, but Kaishek doesn't bother with the island much at this point. Zedong had gathered supporters in the chaos of the fight. KaiShek had lost most of his own. The shoe is on the other foot, and Mr Zedong's people easily beat KaiShek and his people. kick KaiShek out of China very quickly. Where does Mr KaiShek go? He runs to the island, kicks the door down, rapes Ms Taiwan and claims her as his slave-wife. Grand tradition really. She later has a child from him too.

Meanwhile, Mr Zedong gains firm control over the China complex and starts sending threats through messengers to the island, demanding that demanding that the Island, the house and his slave-wife be returned to him and to the ownership of the residents of the China complex. Zedong claims that the island, the house and Ms Taiwan are his by rights. Mr KaiShek refuses of course, and he sends the messengers back with demands that the China complex be returned to his righful ownership. So back and forth it goes, both men claiming all of it and neither one agreeing on who has the right to it all.

Mr KaiShek helps to make substantial improvements to the tiny island, turning it into a much finer house and property than anything in the China complex. It becomes a veritable mansion, mostly through the efforts of Ms Taiwan's children. Time passes and Mr KaiShek and Mr Zedong both die. Ms Taiwan finds herself in an interesting circumstance. She and her children are no longer enslaved to anyone and she is no longer any man's *****. The demands from Mr Zedong's successors continue coming though, threatening to reclaim the slaves and island that should be theirs by rights.

So now we're all caught up to today for the analogy. Who rightfully owns the island (Taiwan)? Who rightfully owns Ms. Taiwan and her children (the people of Taiwan)? Who rightfully owns the house (the Weath and Cities of Taiwan)?

Excellent source for a Timeline of the History is here: http://taiwanresources.com/info/history/chrono.htm

Quote:
Question in general: Are any of you sure of majority of TW want to claim independence?
Bear in mind that I never said that TI movement had a majority. I'm just saying that they do not merit threats from the Mainland for even considering the idea.