Why can't Taiwanese people accept their Chinese heritage? - Page 3




 
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Boots
 
March 31st, 2005  
WarMachine
 
 
The majority of taiwanese aren't chinese but natives that look chinese. That's like asking why don't the aborigines accept their british heritage?
March 31st, 2005  
Boobies
 
 
Pure aborigines are very few left on TW island. Most are mixed with Southern and Northern Chinese (Hakkar Tribe), some European, some Japanese, and other minority bloodlines.

I can understand their claim of non-mainland Chinese; however, to deny Chinese heritage is to deny their roots and where they came from (. It is almost like saying Chinese-Americans have no Chinese heritage because they were all born in the US.

Did TW people declare independence after Japan's retreat? If not, then KMT (from Mainland China) was the legitimate governing body of TW like Qing, Ming Dynasty, or even earlier Dynasties. Furthermore, changing political party does not grant you the right to declare independence. American Civil War comes to mind.
March 31st, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
The difference that you and everyone on the Chinese side of it always fail to mention: When the KMT fled to Taiwan, the Communists did not just take their place. They created a brand new nation out of China. A new Dynasty if you will. That brand new nation had no more claim over territory it did not actually control than in any other case where China transitioned from one Dynasty to another. The new "Dynasty" of the People's Republic of China has never controlled Taiwan.

And the idea that national identity is based solely on ethnicity and culture is pure nonsense. I'd owe a bit less than half my allegience to England, 1/4 to Scotland, 1/4 to Denmark and absolutely no allegiance to the USA. A small bit to Germany I beileve.
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Boots
March 31st, 2005  
Zyca
 
 
Like Boobies stated, Taiwanese are not all pure aboriginals. Most people in Taiwan (I'd say more than 80%) are mixed, definitely not pure mainland Chinese but most can trace back the family trees and find some mainland Chinese ancestors.

The topic in itself is not accurate, Taiwanese people do know that many of their ancestors rooted in the Chinese mainland. However, our beliefs and even cultures have evolved (on top of that mainland Chinese have evolved their cultures in a different direction), therefore it is not uncommon to find both similarities and differences accross the strait. But, this is not crucial in determining whether Taiwan is part of China. By that logic, we would only have very few nations in the world.

Boobies, I'd like to provide you with some additional information as to what has happened when Japan surrenderred Taiwan. KMT took control and Taiwanese hailed their arrival, thinking that the saviors have arrived to free them from being slaved by the Japanese. Then later it turned out that due to the corruption of KMT, Taiwanese people actually lived better lives when under Japanese control (it's sort of a vicious cycle, KMT hates Japanese but they see the folks on the island deeply educated in Japanese customs, so they look down on the Taiwanese and eventaully the hatred went both ways). The conflict reached its peak in 1947, the 228 Incident, where Taiwanese united and fought the KMT and gained control of the island. Of course later KMT sent armies from mainland and squashed the evolution with means no better than the Nanking massacre.

From that point on, Taiwanese people have realized that they were differnet from mainland Chinese, and they were still being ruled by outside power (KMT). KMT did try their best to wipe out the trace of that differences through education and iron fist for the next 50 years. Today, the KMT has evolved, and the voices of the long-surpressed Taiwanese are being heard. Given time, identity won't be an issue for anyone living on the island. Independence is not something anyone can grant you, I think it's something you need to fight for when everyone in it has the same vision. The US had to fight for independence; back then the mother countries must have believed as strongly in their legitmate rights to the US as China does Taiwan today. Some elements are different, but ultimately it's the belief that drives people forward.
April 1st, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
well dont forget the millions of ethenic hans who went and settled in taiwan

it is known that natives of islands such as japan, iwo jima, and teh country vietnam all had much different kind of natives during teh same timeperiod as the chinese civilization, they had diffeent physical attributes than wha became to known as japanese and others..for example, the ainu people of hakkido of japan had caucasian dna and they looked very differently from japs, previously they settled in japanese main islands


well, how did they resemble chinese really close in comparison, over the years mongolids came to japan and other places and they began to civilize

taiwan however was settled mainly by natives during 300-400 AC

it was during this time when han people began to move into taiwan


you could say this; 30% of taiwanese are mixed of han and others, 2-3 % are natives

and the rest are ethenic han people
April 1st, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Much of it is guesswork of course. Unlike such places as Australia or South Africa, you do not have as much of a visible difference between the Aboriginal People and the Colonists that came from China at various different periods. I do not believe that it is very easy to track what percentage of the total ancestry in Taiwan is Chinese and what percentage is Aboriginal. That is a nearly impossible task for anybody to undertake with any hope of accuracy. From what I've seen, the Taiwanese people are not really so much into "denying their Chinese Heritage" as they are exploring what they would like for their future. This is where much of the current conflict comes from, the lack of understanding of that single point.
April 1st, 2005  
Boobies
 
 
Quote:
They created a brand new nation out of China
Please explain that. Don't Chinese rule China.

You have mentioned something about China and its people are different (NOT EXACT WORD) throughout histories because of conquests by the outsiders. All dynasties claimed them to be Chinese after settling down from the initial takeover. They chose to use Mandarin as the central language. They all used and integrated Chinese currencies and political systems into the governing bodies. They recorded their ruling histories as part of China's history and heritage. Do you make them anything less of Chinese eventhough they were not pure blood Han (if pure blood Han still existed at that time)? Do you make them anything other than Chinese eventhough they claimed them to be part of Chinese culture and Chinese?

What are Chinese after centuries of war? Please educate us, define Han or Pure Blood Han if there is such thing. Aren't unpure-Hans Chinese? Do Chinese need foreign power or countries to determine what Chinese were, are, and will be?

Quote:
And the idea that national identity is based solely on ethnicity and culture is pure nonsense.
Did I argue that? I said Change of political system does not grant anyone's right to break off or declare independence from its original sovereign.

White did lot of nasty crap to blacks and other minorities. Do you think this can grant the blacks, Mexicans, or any other victims to claim independence or declare independence anytime they want just because the brutal treatment (they can all talk but will not walk)? TW was not a colony nor a land-grab deal against its people during Ming and Qing Dynasty. TW was part of China, history said.

Quote: "Taiwanese people have realized that they were differnet from mainland Chinese"

Hawaiians are different to maindland Amercians but still considered to be Amercians.

Zyca, you can fight for independence and freedom for the reasons of avoiding unfair treatment from KMT or Communism oppression; however, to discredit TW being part of China does give negative vibes to Chinese and mislead other people. Fight for your rights and beliefs but do not sugar-coat history (American Civil War is more of better example than England-ruled America).
April 1st, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
Quote:
They created a brand new nation out of China
Please explain that. Don't Chinese rule China.
Was China known as the Peoples Republic of China as of 1945 at the Japanese surrender? No, it was not.

But enough of that. Its a pointless discussion that will never accomplish anything.
April 1st, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
lol, historically the chinese way was to for new dynasties and newly esdablished regimes to take over CHINESe land that belonged to us

the qing, mongol, tang had done it, we are pretty much a historic nation that base its diplomaic strategy on making a border that seperates chinese land and the fringes of teh middle kingdom
April 1st, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Thunder...


So, Japan's conquest of China made China not China? What is between China and the People's Republic of China? You are arguing 500 years of China's histories were, are, and will not related rather independent of each other.

Did Japan's invasion make China unChina? If one day democracy takes hold in place, does China becomes a new nation again and relinquish its 5000 years of history? In the west, we constant heard and talk of China's 5000 years of history and heritage, doesn't it conclude the Dynastic developments over time belong to part of China's existence as a whole?

Thunder, everytime the issue gets deeper, you choose the time and place to call quit. Nice move! If you are right, please do answer my questions of:
1. What makes China the China? Should China be viewed as segments of time? If so, when did China become your version of China?
2. If post-civil war China considered to be China, what kind of China was before that? What were the people called? People of KMT? People of Nationalist?
3. Why did Dr. Sun bother to call out a Northern Expedition to unite the fragmented China at the time? Do you consider those people were not Chinese (fragmented states)? Should you consider Sun's Expedition a sort of Chinese conquest of fragmented China?
4. What makes Chinese are Chinese or unChinese over 5000 years of history?

If you can argue all these historical events are not related and should be disregarded as China's path of growing and part of geographic makeup. Then, should China be stripped of the area of XingJiang, Guang Xi, Canton, Mongolia, Hei Lung Jiang (Qing), Hai Nan Dao, Hong Kong, Mecao. and Chong Qing (Si Chuan) besides TW and Tibet often argued.

At last, KMT had control of TW after the Japan surrender (TW was annexed to Japan in Opium war), no?