WarMachine
Active member
The majority of taiwanese aren't chinese but natives that look chinese. That's like asking why don't the aborigines accept their british heritage?
They created a brand new nation out of China
And the idea that national identity is based solely on ethnicity and culture is pure nonsense.
Was China known as the Peoples Republic of China as of 1945 at the Japanese surrender? No, it was not.Boobies said:They created a brand new nation out of China
Please explain that. Don't Chinese rule China.
No, I believe that it is obvious to anyone that I could go on until doomsday. The point is, going into the whole Taiwan debate again only ever leads to a locked thread. I could respond to each item, but what is the point? Is there any way that you will ever somehow be convinced? Ask yourself if it is possible for you to change your views on the topic.Boobies said:Thunder, everytime the issue gets deeper, you choose the time and place to call quit. Nice move!
godofthunder9010 said:No, I believe that it is obvious to anyone that I could go on until doomsday. The point is, going into the whole Taiwan debate again only ever leads to a locked thread. I could respond to each item, but what is the point? Is there any way that you will ever somehow be convinced? Ask yourself if it is possible for you to change your views on the topic.
You are quite correct, Taiwan's annexation by China was certainly by gunpoint. They were never given a choice in the matter after all. There was the alterior motive on the part of the Manchu Dynasty to 1.) Rid themselves of the last vestiges of Ming resistence (to which Taiwan was an unwilling partner) and 2.) After the Dutch held it as a colony, the Manchus saw it as a threat and seized the island in an effort to keep the European colonial powers out of Asia. Then later, much like using a slave in bartering, China hands it over to Japan as one of the concessions after their defeat in the Sino-Japanese War. To the victor goes the spoils. Later on, in 1945, Taiwan is handed back to the Republic of China as yet another concession, this time of a Japanese defeat.Boobies said:No matter how many rulling parties China had. China's history are relative instead of absolute. Many knows that TW was ceded with gun point. Japan did not own TW. TW was still China's territory. That is why Japan surrender TW back to China. For example, you walk into my house and force me to give you the title of my house and a signed deed to your name. Will this be recognized as a legitimate deal?
"Pure Chinese" is Pure Nonsense, if you ask me, yet it is still used as an argument on the Chinese side of the argument of the Taiwan question. "Those people are ethnic Chinese, so they have to be ruled by China!" Might as well try to define "Pure Americans" while your at it.Pure Chinese or pure blood Chinese-if you want to create seperation of some sort? Is there a such thing with 5000 years of history of the making? Chinese is mingled with Hakkar, Mongols, Muslims, Korean Tribes, and other ethnic groups. They are all different. Should they be considered anything other than Chinese? Different beliefs? You mean political, local beliefs, or religion?
I have nothing to lose in changing my mind but the arguments that I've seen presented have been a lot of contradictions and never a very solid case. I honestly think that the world is a better place the moment Taiwan reunites with China completely. Not better for the Taiwanese people necessarily, but the world is better because there is no longer a keg of gunpowder in Southeast Asia ready to blow up any second. Well ... it would make one less anyways.you ask me if I can change my view, yet you don't do the same
Boobies said:Good writing and I am not going to discredit your beliefs in any form. However, I have questions or statements:
Boobies said:No matter how many rulling parties China had. China's history are relative instead of absolute. Many knows that TW was ceded with gun point. Japan did not own TW. TW was still China's territory. That is why Japan surrender TW back to China. For example, you walk into my house and force me to give you the title of my house and a signed deed to your name. Will this be recognized as a legitimate deal?
Boobies said:Pure Chinese or pure blood Chinese-if you want to create seperation of some sort? Is there a such thing with 5000 years of history of the making? Chinese is mingled with Hakkar, Mongols, Muslims, Korean Tribes, and other ethnic groups. They are all different. Should they be considered anything other than Chinese? Different beliefs? You mean political, local beliefs, or religion?
Boobies said:I enjoyed what you wrote actually. Yes, I actually agree with what you said about the negativities with "union against the will". And I don't believe in attacking TW to gain union at present political stage. I certainly hope things can change for the better with the two.
However, I don't believe in argument that the Japanese annexation of TW by gun point was a legal transaction. If the transaction was deemed unfair and illegal, Japanese surrendering of TW back to China was a must, unconditionally.
"To the victor goes the spoils"? Even the war was illegal and unprovoked? Don't you think China/Chinese are being short-changed here in the contemporary history? Would you allow the US goes into other countries and claim everything American under the name of "to the victor goes the spoil"?
Once again, would you and others honor the deal between you and me if I forced you relinquishing your properties under gun point, right after a big fist fights between us? Would the law allow such deal served without exercising prejudice?
To the argument of Chinese and non-Chinese:
If the land belonged to China, wouldn't you call the people live on it Chinese, with ethnic back ground? I would certainly call people who live on Hawaii, Americans, with Pacific/Islander ethnicity.
Finally, if TW maintained status quote, not claim independence, there wouldn't be any threat of military actions. And there won't be any force of BOWING to Beijing like you mentioned.
Question in general: Are any of you sure of majority of TW want to claim independence? I can see the group who want to claim independence and the nations who support it. But, are foreign nations willing to see TW people whom don't want independence but a unification. Would you represent the welfare of this group of people as well as the pro-independence group?
Precisely, but you must have missed the spin I put on that. China was the agressor to begin with. I'm not talking about the Sino-Japanese War at all. I'm talking a couple hundred years earlier where the late Ming seized control of Taiwan. Subsequently, the Qing Dynasty also invaded and took over. Did anyone bother asking the Taiwanese people if they were okay with all of this? No they did not.Boobies said:"To the victor goes the spoils"? Even the war was illegal and unprovoked? Don't you think China/Chinese are being short-changed here in the contemporary history? Would you allow the US goes into other countries and claim everything American under the name of "to the victor goes the spoil"?
Your analogy is incomplete and doesn't really tell the whole story though. This addresses the rest of what you said as well.Once again, would you and others honor the deal between you and me if I forced you relinquishing your properties under gun point, right after a big fist fights between us? Would the law allow such deal served without exercising prejudice?
Bear in mind that I never said that TI movement had a majority. I'm just saying that they do not merit threats from the Mainland for even considering the idea.Question in general: Are any of you sure of majority of TW want to claim independence?
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