Wheres the end game?

[Koponkof]

I am on my third tour to Iraq. I have a total of 26 months in country as of right now and well over 45 months overseas. Each passing day the thought of why I am here grows ever larger in my mind.
From Southern Baghdad in Dora and East Rashid during the Surge of 2007, Post Arrowhead Ripper operations in Baqouba in 2008, Last Al Qaeda stronghold in Iraq up in Mosul 2009 to Basra 2011, the last year of the war. I have pretty much been all over the country and seen many things that have changed my opinion of this place and it's people more than I can count. When I first came here I honestly believed in the mission and thought it produced results, which it did for the time being. However, we can only babysit these people for so long at the expense of our economy and soldier's lives.
I am not here to spit proven facts or numbers at you. This is purely opinionated words from a guy who spent some time in the sand box. Just about everybody has an opinion on this place and none of it is 100 percent wrong or right nor do I claim to be right on everything. I can only tell you what I have seen.
I think it is time we leave this place once and for all. Afghanistan as well. We have accomplished what we came here to do, we overthrew saddam, tried him and executed him. We setup and defended an Iraqi democratic Government that has the means and capability of taking charge of it's future and protecting it's people. It took well over 5,000 coalition troops to do it and 45,000 others wounded. I lost count of how many times I could of been part of those statistics. I know many of my friends are who had wives and new born infants whom they will never see grow up. We came here to do a job and we completed it. Why are we still here?
We have stood up the iraqi government with our own blood money and tax dollars, we have sacrificed our own lives and relationships for this government to stand on its own. We have trained them, gave them weapons, money, uniforms and advice. What more can be done? If they aren't capable by now, they never will be. It is time to cast them out into the wild.
It makes me so angry to see on the news about how the war is over here and the last combat troops have been pulled out. This is simply a ploy. IT IS NOT TRUE! The current ROE here restrains us from defending ourselves, however, still puts us out there in harms way. It is prime example of HALF ASS war.
It has to be either ALL IN or ALL OUT. Just like Afghanistan. When you engage in HALF ASS WAR, soldiers die, nothing gets accomplished. Osama Bin Laden is dead. We need to declare victory and leave Afghanistan as well. The mission there was to destroy al qaeda and capture or kill bin laden. It is done. All we seem to be fighting there now are locals and taliban. How could we have lost sight of our mission there? It will never end in afghanistan because that is their home. We have to leave eventually, we can not stay there forever. The Taliban can hang out in Pakistan forever. They will always return to Afghanistan because that is there home. When we leave, whenever we do, they will return regardless. If we continue to stay there and fight for causes UNCLEAR then we will suffer the same humiliation as the soviet union.
Right now is our oppourtunity to exit afghanistan with a victory. Iraq as well. There are more important things to be done at home like securing our borders from the Cartel and the unrest in mexico, right in our backyard. Nobody seems to care about that though. Where is the end game? We have accomplished everything we set out to do. Now we need to leave the table while the chips are up before we walk away with nothing later on. This cannot turn into endless war. Endless wars destroy nations and divides its people.
Just my opinion. Insight would be nice yall take care. :salute2:

 

[senojekips]

Just be careful Koponkof and make sure you get home in one piece.

I think I know how you feel, it's like deja vu, for many of my generation.

 

[A Can of Man]

I see victory looking like this: Muslim countries, governments and people actively hunt down these extremist groups, realizing that they are a bigger threat to them than they are to us (because they are).
That is how we win this war on terror.

 

[GHR]

There is some information in your post I would remove if I were you!

 

[KJ]

I agree with GHR.
This is a forum open for the world to see.

We can discuss the outlines of this same question without throwing caution to the wind people!

KJ sends..

 

[Koponkof]

Duely noted. I figured you could read about it on the news its already on there just got to search for it. I took the advice though, good tip.

As far as the islamic/arab people taking charge of their own destiny I personally think is a great thing. However, could have consequances for Israel. Another mess there we'll probably be involved in.

Who knows.....

 

[A Can of Man]

As far as the islamic/arab people taking charge of their own destiny I personally think is a great thing. However, could have consequances for Israel. Another mess there we'll probably be involved in.

We need to realize that we have no obligation to defend Israel if it is not in the interest of the United States. Something that seems to be unbelievably hard to get across to far too many Americans.

 

[GHR]

" Victory "is when you have successfully accomplished the mission.

In 2002, we were told that Saddam Hussein had amassed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Our mission was to rid the world of the threat of Saddam's stockpiles of WMD. The inspectors found no WMD, nor any indication that there had been since the inspectors last time were there. In all the years since then, all evidence indicates that there were no WMD. Mission accomplished, we had achieved victory in Iraq before we start.

But wait! When we started to drop bombs in Iraq, it was announced that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" had begun. There was a new mission. We want the Iraqis free from the clutches of an evil dictator, and they would thank us with chocolates and flowers. A few weeks later the dictator was gone. Mission accomplished, we had achieved victory in Iraq.

But wait! When the Iraqis actually thanked us with suicide bombers and improvised explosive devices, we had another new mission. Iraq would become a democracy - a bright light that all Middle Eastern countries would like to emulate. We launched a campaign to rid the government of Baath Party members, which included all who had any position of power or authority. We have developed a set of "cute little" cards with pictures of all the most powerful people, and arrested them. We conducted an election and proudly took pictures of people holding their fingers stained purple. We turned the Sunni ruling class, and put the Shiite majority in power. We created a democracy. Mission accomplished, we had achieved victory in Iraq.

But wait! We disturb the social order in a way that the rich and powerful did not like, and they had hundreds of thousands of young people who we had dismissed from the army to form into instruments of violence. As the country descended into civil war, and instead of a beacon that shines, Baghdad became a city of darkness, violence and rotting sewage, we had a new mission. We would like to "stay the course", we would not "Cut and Run", which would be a disgrace to all the courageous efforts of our soldiers. If we do not "fight them there, we would have to" fight them here ".

And then came "The Surge!" That sounds like an overwhelming show of force to subdue the enemy, "but was actually only the construction of the number of troops back to their previous level, and changing tactics. Instead of trying to kill all who opposed us, we started talking with them; negotiate, buy their cooperation and alliances - the recommendations that the Iraq Study Group proposed a few years ago, but rejected at the time. Our new mission is to get Iraqis to kill each other more slowly than before "The Surge". Mission accomplished, we have achieved victory in Iraq.

But wait………….!!!

Afghanistan you say?

al-Qaeda out; No wait……introduction of democracy; No wait……women's rights; No wait……stability so they can take over themselves……No wait !!!

The missions in Iraq and Afghanistan in one word: SNAFU!

I understand your frustration, but this is how it is and it have probably always been that way for soldiers. We are just a tool that politicians use (or abuse if you want)

I solve the task I've got and if the task changes in character then I adapt myself to the new task. My real Mision is to get all the guys and girls in my squad home alive. Everything else is just politics.

 

[A Can of Man]

" Victory "is when you have successfully accomplished the mission.

And the mission is to defeat terror, no? That's why it's called the War on Terror.
More specifically, to defeat terrorist groups, mostly from Muslim countries and societies. So naturally victory would be that these countries and societies actively hunt down these extremist groups to deny them recruits, sanctuary and money.

 

[KJ]

And the mission is to defeat terror, no? That's why it's called the War on Terror.
More specifically, to defeat terrorist groups, mostly from Muslim countries and societies. So naturally victory would be that these countries and societies actively hunt down these extremist groups to deny them recruits, sanctuary and money.

Actually, as in all successful COIN campaigns a passive/active support from the local populace would be sufficient.

Passive in the way that the insurgents are denied their recruitment base and logistical support.
They don´t have to activly hunt insurgents, that is what the OEF units are for.
Active in the way that villages bound together and start defending themselves against the subversive elements.
Today this task is handeled by ISAF wich I personally think is a misstake.
You can NOT protect a civilian populace by meere force.
You have to create a bond to the local populace you are there to protect.
How are you supposed to do this when you sit inside a FOB, go out for a patrol and then as soon as dark sets retreat in behind your wire again?
You should instead train Teams from the different villages to protect themselves with minimal support from the coalition assets and get them as selfsufficiant as possible.
That would free up ALOT of ground pounders to go home and let them proffessionals at FID do their thing.


What we have today are local communities either fully integrated under Taliban C&C and/or too scared to do something about it in expectation of repraisals.
ie: nightletters and terror directed at those who have helped the coalition.

Fact is, we are not going to get EVERY terrorist on earth.
Never going to happen.
What we can do and have been doing is tieing down most of their assets to ONE theatre.
Thus protecting our homes by proxy.

As for Iraq, I never got what we are doing there..
WMD,s? Bollocks..
Cool to get SH? Sure..
But why him?
There are ALOT of crazy dictators around the world that does not get the same attention.
As for THAT part I am on the same lines as the TS.
Either you get out and say "We got the bastard"
Or you stay and try to make the best of that mess at the cost of your own troops.


"If all you got is a hammer, all your problems will soon start to look like nails."


KJ sends..

 

[Koponkof]

I agree with you GHR. Nothing we can do. Soldiers dont ask questions and just accomplish the mission regardless of their feeling. That is pretty much the best advice anyone can get in this situation because it's way above our pay grade.

It would just be nice to see those playing with toy soldiers actually become the ones being played....

 

[GHR]

And the mission is to defeat terror, no? That's why it's called the War on Terror.
More specifically, to defeat terrorist groups, mostly from Muslim countries and societies. So naturally victory would be that these countries and societies actively hunt down these extremist groups to deny them recruits, sanctuary and money.

When it comes to taking action against terror, one must in my opinion, avoid using the term "war on terror. " If one simply suggest that a terrorist in any way is comparable to a soldier, you are helping to create a perception of a terrorist act is more than what is actually is, a vile and cowardly crime.

There is some evidence to suggest that the "war" has helped, there have been no spectacular attack by Al-Q, terrorism has been weakened, and there are indications that the Arab Spring shows that Muslims themselves are tired of the radical forces. Naturally one can defeat an enemy militarily. But the question is perhaps not so much to win the war - but to win the peace.

 

[A Can of Man]

There is some evidence to suggest that the "war" has helped, there have been no spectacular attack by Al-Q, terrorism has been weakened, and there are indications that the Arab Spring shows that Muslims themselves are tired of the radical forces. Naturally one can defeat an enemy militarily. But the question is perhaps not so much to win the war - but to win the peace.

Yes and that too is my point.
It's how you manage the peacetime.