Where to Palestine?

[senojekips]

what u need to relise is that TV never say the truth,do u always bellive the newspaper andd the TV?
come on lets be reasonable and not little children.
if the norwagen wats to sow th sffre of the arabs they can do that,but that dosent eman there is no suffer on our side,i dont play the gaame whoo sufers more,ofcourse they do and i dont care,i really dont,when they would give up fighting and when they give up thieer arrogancce(that i do not unndeerstand,tgey lost any struggle they went through) and saying that the resictgence will carry on hurting us(a thing that dossent happen at all)then there will be peace,not when we will stop protecting ourselves

Suffering is only part of it. what counts is that you are the oppressors of an innocent people who diid nothing to you. So don't even bother trying to tell me that they are arrogant,... they actually own the land, you just occupy it.

British Jewish MP Denounces Israel

Ex-President Jimmy Carter Tells the Truth about Israel

Jewish Rabbi Says Israel Should Not Exist

You see,.... the world is losing patience with Zionist terrorism, even many Israelis are ashamed.

Please obey the Forum rules and only post one thing at a time. Multiple posts are not allowed.

You never answered my question about the army murdering innocent farmers.

I'm going to bed, it's after midnight here. Anyway, we have said all this before and my answers will, always be the same

 

[MontyB]

i dont think that the state of Israel has any problem fighting agaisnt militants for even 500 years,it is them who live in poverty while my little sister is playing on her playstaion,if they want war be my guest,just dont cry when they loose it

what minority do u speak of???
there are 6 mnilion jews in israel and maybe 1.5 mil arabs,if u speak of the region then they tried that before,we saw where that led them

What if they don't lose?

You just have to look at recent years to see that they are putting up a better fight on the ground and you just have to look at the cost analysis of greater and greater defense spending on a small economy to see how well that economy will last without external support.

I hope your sister enjoys her Playstation now because without some sort of peace you may not have it in the future.

 

[Yossarian]

Both freaking sides need support, not to further the goals of the supporting powers, but to politically and morally settle this thing out, at this rate, allot Israelis and Palestinians will die before that happens on it's own.

I support both sides morally on the grounds that they both should not be under threat of violence or oppression, neither deserves that, I mean, come on, everyone there is like me, and everyone here, we are all human, we have many unique differences but if someone doesn't set them aside, allot of people will die for no good reason, the world or at least some people should take initiative and fix the issues here, hell buy me a ticket to Gaza and I would try my d#mnest to do something and if not, at least stop the violence, stop this who's who stuff, that only helps forward it another day, another year, another set back, and many lives lost in the meantime.

 

[senojekips]

What if they don't lose?

You just have to look at recent years to see that they are putting up a better fight on the ground and you just have to look at the cost analysis of greater and greater defence spending on a small economy to see how well that economy will last without external support.

Or perhaps more to the point, "What if we all lose".

Ridiculous???,..... no, not necessarily. Although I think it is less likely than a few years ago when the old USSR was a basket case. All it would take is for a radical group to acquire a pre-loved nuke or large amount of nuclear material from a rogue state. The line up of volunteers to take it into Tel Aviv and detonate it would reach around the block. They wouldn't worry about making martyrs of their own people, and making a large area of the middle east uninhabitable for the next few hundred years, to achieve their desires.

Not only are the Palestinians putting up a better fight on the ground, more and more Western countries are giving cautious support to them. I think that if ever the US blinked, many, particularly European countries, would give the nod to the Palestinian cause.

The other way that we could all lose is if we allow Israel to drag us into a much larger scenario involving "the Axis of Evil". As Russia gets stronger, there is always the chance that they will jump in and support the pro Arab movement if for no other reason than to give the present Western Coalition some grief, whilst having a ready market for their huge amounts of old outdated armaments.

There are many possible scenarios, and the one that the Israelis are hoping for, is a long way down the list of possibilities and dropping further as every day passes.

 

[Yossarian]

Or perhaps more to the point, "What if we all lose".

Ridiculous???,..... no, not necessarily. Although I think it is less likely than a few years ago when the old USSR was a basket case. All it would take is for a radical group to acquire a pre-loved nuke or large amount of nuclear material from a rogue state. The line up of volunteers to take it into Tel Aviv and detonate it would reach around the block. They wouldn't worry about making martyrs of their own people, and making a large area of the middle east uninhabitable for the next few hundred years, to achieve their desires.

Not only are the Palestinians putting up a better fight on the ground, more and more Western countries are giving cautious support to them. I think that if ever the US blinked, many, particularly European countries, would give the nod to the Palestinian cause.

The other way that we could all lose is if we allow Israel to drag us into a much larger scenario involving "the Axis of Evil". As Russia gets stronger, there is always the chance that they will jump in and support the pro Arab movement if for no other reason than to give the present Western Coalition some grief, whilst having a ready market for their huge amounts of old outdated armaments.

There are many possible scenarios, and the one that the Israelis are hoping for, is a long way down the list of possibilities and dropping further as every day passes.

It's Ironic you say that some European countries are giving support to wards the Palestinians, I'm not saying you are wrong, or mocking so don't place me on the chopping block here.

But turn back the clock here, how was it in 1948 that the large influx of Jewish people came to this region of the world? And who drew the first lines of who gets what back in the beginning, not 10 years later, not one year later, the very very beginning, when the seeds for this issue were planted.

 

[senojekips]

Please do not misquote me, what I said was that if the US blinks, many, particularly European countries would give more vocal support to the Palestinian cause.

 

[MontyB]

Found this "interesting" and somewhat relevant...

Ex-Israel minister in peace push
A former Israeli minister has unveiled a peace plan which offers a Palestinian state with temporary borders and the possibility of talks with Hamas.
Shaul Mofaz, deputy leader of the Kadima party, said Israel should agree immediately to a state comprising Gaza and 60% of the occupied West Bank.
Negotiations would then be held on core issues, such as Jerusalem's future, the right of return, and permanent borders.
Israel should talk to Hamas if it wins elections set for 2010, he said.
The former army chief-of-staff, a well-known hawk, announced his plan only days after Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said he would not seek a second term, citing the impasse in efforts to resume negotiations with Israel.
At a rally in Bethlehem Sunday, Mr Abbas condemned Israel's refusal to halt the construction of settlements in the West Bank.
"Israel says it rejects preconditions for restarting negotiations, but in fact the Israelis reject peace," he said. "They don't want to stop settlements, and they don't want a two-state solution."
'Fading legitimacy'
Mr Mofaz had earlier presented his peace plan at a news conference in Jerusalem, saying it was needed "because the relative calm is dangerous, and at its end hides a violent and bloody conflict".


It proposes that Israel should agree to the establishment within a year of a Palestinian state with temporary borders on 60% of occupied West Bank land - mainly areas that are already under Palestinian control. Jewish settlers living outside major settlement blocs would be forced to leave and given compensation.
The next stage, according to the plan, would be negotiations on the future of Jerusalem, the right of return of Palestinian refugees, and permanent borders.
The final Palestinian state would not be formed on less that 92% of the territory that was under Egyptian and Jordanian control before 1967, it proposes. Territorial exchanges would be offered.
Mr Mofaz also said he would agree to talk to Hamas, the Islamist group which controls Gaza, if it won the Palestinian parliamentary elections scheduled for 24 January and wanted to begin negotiations.
"At that moment, it would effectively... no longer be Hamas. I think that Israel must sit with a group that changes its agenda and the way it conducts business," he told reporters.
Israel and Western powers have in the past demanded that Hamas must agree to recognise the Jewish state, renounce violence, and accept interim peace deals - terms which Hamas has refused to accept.


OBSTACLES TO PEACE
Settlements are built on land occupied by Israel in the 1967 war

Mr Mofaz's plan was immediately criticised by both Israelis and Palestinians, with Hamas ruling out negotiations with the "Zionist enemy".
"We do not believe in engaging with the occupation, or in talks that would beautify its face in the eyes of the world," said Fawzi Barhoum, a spokesman.
Even members of Kadima said Mr Mofaz's plan was "an irresponsible step" and that they suspected it might be part of a move to win the opposition party leadership from Tzipi Livni, Israel Army Radio said.
But the former defence minister and deputy prime minister told the BBC on Monday that it had been well received outside the region.
"There is no other plan, and the question is: To what direction is there to move?" he asked. "Accepting the vision of the two-state solution, we have to implement. My suggestion is the key for continuing negotiations and achieving peace between Israel and the Palestinians."
Mr Mofaz said Palestinian negotiators were not against the plan in private, but simply wary of discussing it before next year's elections.
"In Israel, more and more people understand that time is not in favour of the state of Israel. Iran is on its way to obtaining nuclear capabilities; radical forces are gaining strength; the Iranian umbrella of help [to militants] is clear to all," he added.
"Israel's legitimacy, in the eyes of the international community, is fading. There is a growing impatience with the occupation and the collection of settlements being built by the Israeli government."

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/8350667.stm

 

[ASTRALdragon]

And I suppose you know of a solution that is not based on speculation? All plans are speculative until proven. All you have done is pose more questions not suggested a viable answer. Until someone accepts the blame and starts doing something about it you are correct, more will continue to die. The first step to stopping this might be to get Israel to accept that they are only a very small minority occupying force and they must give the owners of the country a say in how it is administered. A la South Africa.

I would never presume to have the best answer for the situation over there. If it were up to me, the whole place over there would be known as the Glasslands :firedevi:. So, thankfully it is not up to me. All I know is that many reasonable plans have been put forth by the world, but so far all have been rejected because Palestinians want the whole place back and both you and I know that can't happen. Israel keeps building settlements deeper into Gaza. And radical factions keep touting their vision of a twisted religion and do not want to deal with "the Zionist enemy." Without resorting to violence, I think the best option would be for the UN to decide the outcome and force it on the Israelis and Palestinians because that powder keg is getting ready to blow... Then again, that's just me. My expertise is in law, not politics and diplomacy.

 

[senojekips]

I would never presume to have the best answer for the situation over there. If it were up to me, the whole place over there would be known as the Glasslands :firedevi:. So, thankfully it is not up to me. All I know is that many reasonable plans have been put forth by the world, but so far all have been rejected because Palestinians want the whole place back and both you and I know that can't happen. Israel keeps building settlements deeper into Gaza. And radical factions keep touting their vision of a twisted religion and do not want to deal with "the Zionist enemy." Without resorting to violence, I think the best option would be for the UN to decide the outcome and force it on the Israelis and Palestinians because that powder keg is getting ready to blow... Then again, that's just me. My expertise is in law, not politics and diplomacy.

My previous answer was in reply to you stating that what I had said was merely speculation.

Well, this is just speculation at best.

To which I answered,.... Of course it's speculation, all proposed solutions are speculative. Why did you feel the necessity to state the obvious as if I was not aware of it, or I was some mad dog barking at the moon.

And exactly why shouldn't the Palestinians want all of their own country back, after all it is their country. Why should they settle for less than anyone else is entitled to. Yeah,... I know, there is no powerful Palestinian voter base in the US.

Forget the radicals and religion, and all the other excuses. After all, If it were not for the European Jews occupying Palestinian land, the radicals would have nothing to rant about, and religion would be just that,... it would return to being no more than a crutch for those who don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand on their own two feet and take responsibility for their own actions.

 

[captiva303]

where to palistine?

they are pretty much on a road to no where...