Where to Palestine?

[MontyB]

As usuall senojekips you continue to believe that the reasons for radical militant muslims attacking western targets are related to the ISraeli-Arab conflict. This is not true in my honest opinion, and infact most experts on radical Islam will tell you that the issue is the firstly religous. Organizations like Hammas, Hezballah, and Al-Quaeda are not about Palestine. They are about asserting Islamic superiority where muslims live at first and world wide afterwards. The evidence for this is largely open to view. The claim that Hezballah is fighting ISrael for instance, due to the suffering of the Palestinians, is absurd, because it is very obvious that Hezballah is nothing but a branch of the Irani shiite radicals. The Iranis are more intrested in destroying moderate regiems in the Arab world, like the Jordanian and Egyptian ones, than they are in reliving their Palestinian "brothers"(who are not of the same race, nationality or even religion for that matter).

These people, whom we call fundamentalists, simply and openly want to force Islam on the rest of the world. This has nothing to do with Israel.

Somehow this should prevent us doing the right thing by the Palestinians?

I don't trust Hamas, Hezbollah, or Israel to do the right thing by anyone but themselves but in the end I do know that consigning a race of people to small chunks of land to live in poverty is not a good thing.

In the end I know that even with a Palestinian homeland Islam will never be united enough to threaten the west militarily and that the likes of Al-Quaeda will never be anything more than a fringe element even in the Muslim world.

 

[EladBell]

God u hate them so much and with no actuall reason,like war must have rules.
1)the Victor must promise that the defeatedarmy will not be destroyed
2)the victor must promis not to occupy the territoy he won
3)in case the losing side is poor the vvicctor must promise to help them get rich and wealthier.

U GUYS SPEAK LIKE U ARE LITTLE KIDS GROW UP THIS IS THE REGION NOW FORGET ABOUT THE PAST ITS ALL OVER NOW,WE LIVE AT 2009 NOT AT 1009 KEEP IT REAL TRY TO SOLVVE THESE THINGS AND NOT THHOSE THAT ARE LONG GONE!!!

 

[senojekips]

As usuall senojekips you continue to believe that the reasons for radical militant muslims attacking western targets are related to the ISraeli-Arab conflict. This is not true in my honest opinion, and infact most experts on radical Islam will tell you that the issue is the firstly religous.

Well, the great boogie man Bin laden has said so himself, and because all of these groups follow his example, I'd say he is probably right.

These people, whom we call fundamentalists, simply and openly want to force Islam on the rest of the world. This has nothing to do with Israel.

These fundamentalists were no more than a mob of idiots with only very limited appeal even in their own countries until they were given a cause to hate certain Western countries.

How many Al Qaeda based attacks have there been in Brazil, Switzerland or Poland, or many of the other non Muslim countries. These are all Christian countries, yet they do not attract the Muslim terrorists that the USA does So it's not merely a religious thing, and why is the USA such a target? I think I can safely say that is because of their support of Israel, or more to the point lack of support for the Palestinians who are actually the wronged party here.

Similarly I think that most of the worlds military analysts would agree. It's not rocket science to look at the how terrorism is being used and against whom, to see this.

 

[MontyB]

God u hate them so much and with no actuall reason,like war must have rules.
1)the Victor must promise that the defeatedarmy will not be destroyed
2)the victor must promis not to occupy the territoy he won
3)in case the losing side is poor the vvicctor must promise to help them get rich and wealthier.

U GUYS SPEAK LIKE U ARE LITTLE KIDS GROW UP THIS IS THE REGION NOW FORGET ABOUT THE PAST ITS ALL OVER NOW,WE LIVE AT 2009 NOT AT 1009 KEEP IT REAL TRY TO SOLVVE THESE THINGS AND NOT THHOSE THAT ARE LONG GONE!!!

Perhaps you should remember that if not for points 1-3 and the Allied sense of guilt you wouldn't have a country at all.

 

[senojekips]

God u hate them so much and with no actuall reason,like war must have rules.
1)the Victor must promise that the defeatedarmy will not be destroyed
2)the victor must promis not to occupy the territoy he won
3)in case the losing side is poor the vvicctor must promise to help them get rich and wealthier.

U GUYS SPEAK LIKE U ARE LITTLE KIDS GROW UP THIS IS THE REGION NOW FORGET ABOUT THE PAST ITS ALL OVER NOW,WE LIVE AT 2009 NOT AT 1009 KEEP IT REAL TRY TO SOLVVE THESE THINGS AND NOT THHOSE THAT ARE LONG GONE!!!

(1) You are NOT the "Victors". You can only claim victory once the war is won, and you are getting further from that every day.
(2) You never even fought to gain the Country you call Israel,... It was given to you by people wanting to ease their own guilt for not having done anything to help the Jews in the camps. All you have done is to flood your occupied territory so you can displace the owners and repress any attempts by them to get it back, meanwhile you allow your citizens to terrorise palestinians in their own homes and drive them off their land, don't bother denying it or I will start posting pages out of Haaretz and video clips provided by groups like B'Tselem, as it seems not all Israelis are blind to the truth.

Don't call us little kids until you are willing to face the truth as did David Ben-Gurion, who openly admitted that you were taking a land that belongs to others.

Israel's reprisal policy, 1953-1956: the dynamics of military retaliation.

By Zeʼev Derori
Ben-Gurion recognized the strong attachment of Palestinian Arabs to the land but hoped that this would be overcome in time. In a conversation about "the Arab problem" in 1956, Goldman wrote that Ben-Gurion stated: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army.

The problem is very simply solved, but the Israelis do not wish to be governed by the land's owners. Instead, you wish to impose your will upon them. What you don't or won't realise is that every day you are in denial, the problem gets worse, you will not be happy until you have dragged the whole Western world into your war of oppression.

But slowly, slowly the citizens of those countries backing Israel are waking up and asking why are our taxes being used and our children dying to support an illegal regime of terror in the Middle East.

 

[EladBell]

i give up
Ignorance is a bless

 

[captiva303]

Well, the great boogie man Bin laden has said so himself, and because all of these groups follow his example, I'd say he is probably right.

this statement may be answered by your own signature lol...

 

[senojekips]

i give up
Ignorance is a bless

Correct, and it's time you started to wake up to what is going on in the world. Many countries are quickly losing that guilt trip they shared after WWII. Israel's arrogance and treatment of the Palestinians is the cause of this happening

Believe it or not, as little as 10 years ago I was 100% pro Israel, but atrocities like Ramallah sowed the seeds of doubt and since than I have looked more carefully. What I saw surprised even me.

this statement may be answered by your own signature lol...

Well,... that was not what I wanted to hear, so perhaps it was the truth. All of the evidence would certainly seem to indicate that.

 

[captiva303]

what was ramallah?

 

[senojekips]

Mr Google is your friend. While you are at it try Jenin as well.

 

[captiva303]

Well,... that was not what I wanted to hear, so perhaps it was the truth. All of the evidence would certainly seem to indicate that.

so do you think usama bin laden was talking to you personally...
when i said this i was referring to what usama had said, and im pretty sure what he said had some pretty big ulterior motives and was largely tellimng us what we would want to hear from "dr evil" himself...

 

[senojekips]

so do you think usama bin laden was talking to you personally...
when i said this i was referring to what usama had said, and im pretty sure what he said had some pretty big ulterior motives and was largely tellimng us what we would want to hear from "dr evil" himself...

I can only interpret what I hear as I hear it, I do not worry unduly over what it means to others, and in fact I'm not partuicularly interested how others interpret it at all as it is fairly obvious.

Anyway having said that, from all I read, it appears that most middle Eastern analysts agree, that it was US involvement with Israel that crystalised and united Muslim attitudes towards the US and ultimately led to the the terrorism that bought recognition to Al Quaeda, and them becoming the nexus of all Muslim hatred. This occured more as a result of the western press than anything the terrorists actually did. This hatred was focused on the US and spread to those who supported them. Hence the notable lack of Al Quaeda activity against other non muslim countries.

 

[mmarsh]

I can only interpret what I hear as I hear it, I do not worry unduly over what it means to others, and in fact I'm not partuicularly interested how others interpret it at all as it is fairly obvious.

Anyway having said that, from all I read, it appears that most middle Eastern analysts agree, that it was US involvement with Israel that crystalised and united Muslim attitudes towards the US and ultimately led to the the terrorism that bought recognition to Al Quaeda, and them becoming the nexus of all Muslim hatred. This occured more as a result of the western press than anything the terrorists actually did. This hatred was focused on the US and spread to those who supported them. Hence the notable lack of Al Quaeda activity against other non muslim countries.

In fact if one listens to the complaints about the America in the Middle East, you'll see that the US-Isreali relationship is reason numero uno why they dont like us. We solve this and alot of our problems go away. There will always be a al-Qaeda and Hamas just like there will always be a Mafia, but they will lose alot of their local support amongst the population.

Remember there are 6.7 Million Isrealis and approximatly 300 Million Arabs.

 

[Yossarian]

Mr. mmarsh, just giving what the militant groups want, in my opinion doesn't stop them, if not because of Israel, then I am sure that they will find another reason to go on another hostile campaign against the west. I mean look the people your talking about, the terror groups of the middle east, do you honestly think that if the U.S. stopped all involvement with Israel, that they would just kindly leave the U.S. alone? We have given to them before, and even if we meet their demands, ha! They will still just find another reason or scapegoat to continue their business as usual, when all you do is deal violence and political instability, then what other trades are you going to engage in? I can sure as heck tell you not peace, and world betterness.

 

[mmarsh]

Mr. mmarsh, just giving what the militant groups want, in my opinion doesn't stop them, if not because of Israel, then I am sure that they will find another reason to go on another hostile campaign against the west. I mean look the people your talking about, the terror groups of the middle east, do you honestly think that if the U.S. stopped all involvement with Israel, that they would just kindly leave the U.S. alone? We have given to them before, and even if we meet their demands, ha! They will still just find another reason or scapegoat to continue their business as usual, when all you do is deal violence and political instability, then what other trades are you going to engage in? I can sure as heck tell you not peace, and world betterness.

Sukio

It depends which groups you are referring to. Groups like al-Qaeda/PIJ, you cannot reason with. But then again, I am sure al-Qaeda doesnt really care about suffering of the Palestineans, their main goal is overthrowing the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and putting themselves in power. They simple use the Palstinean issue as an excuse to appeal to Muslims in general.

I only view one Political Group in Palestine as truly legitamite and thats Fatah. Fatah has repeatedly stated that want a peaceful solution. And if you check the polls, most of the people in Palestine want peace with Isreal and good relations with the west. The fact is the Palestineans are economically dependent on Isreal, most realize that if Isreal doesnt survive neither do they. Its a symbiotic relationship. Yes they are sympathetic to more violent groups like Hamas, but frankly thats understandable. To put into past context, I dont think the French people shed any tears when the French resistence blew up a bunch of Germans during the Nazi occupation, and they did target German civilians in France too. There will always be a tedency to sympathize with those who fight oppression regardless of the methods that are used, deplorable as they might be. But we cannot get into who did what to whom, because both sides are equally guilty.

I look at this issue as a moral issue. Quite simply I view the Occupation of the West Bank as illegal and immoral. Like all countries (including the US) I do not accept the rationalization of Isreal seizing land that doesnt belong to them. I feel we are are on the wrong side of this arguement. And as long as America supports the occupation we are going to feel some blowback from it.

 

[senojekips]

In fact if one listens to the complaints about the America in the Middle East, you'll see that the US-Isreali relationship is reason numero uno why they dont like us. We solve this and alot of our problems go away. There will always be a al-Qaeda and Hamas just like there will always be a Mafia, but they will lose a lot of their local support amongst the population.

Remember there are 6.7 Million Isrealis and approximatly 300 Million Arabs.

What else can I say. The sooner the US stops backing Israel against the Palestinians, the sooner this whole business will start to cool off. It will never just go away, as people have long memories and will always regard the US alliance with suspicion as a result of them having backed their enemy who over ran their country and murdered their citizens.

For a start, if the US were to show some proactive support for Palestine, (like imposing sanctions) against Israel, AlQaeda would lose much of it's leverage, and in time would be effectivly emasculated as a viable force against the West. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would become largely unnecessary.

If 10% of the money being spent to fight these wars were spent in support of a true Palestinian solution, I think that the US would become a safer and richer place.

Just look at what these wars are costing. Other than the lives of your finest young men and women, and the waste of taxpayers dollars. Things like the department of Homeland security could be wound back along with many "emergency laws" and impositions, many of your federal agencies could go back to doing what they were originally meant to do, it just goes on and on.

 

[Yossarian]

Sukio

It depends which groups you are referring to. Groups like al-Qaeda/PIJ, you cannot reason with. But then again, I am sure al-Qaeda doesnt really care about suffering of the Palestineans, their main goal is overthrowing the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and putting themselves in power. They simple use the Palstinean issue as an excuse to appeal to Muslims in general.

I only view one Political Group in Palestine as truly legitamite and thats Fatah. Fatah has repeatedly stated that want a peaceful solution. And if you check the polls, most of the people in Palestine want peace with Isreal and good relations with the west. The fact is the Palestineans are economically dependent on Israel, most realize that if Israel doesn't survive neither do they. Its a symbiotic relationship. Yes they are sympathetic to more violent groups like Hamas, but frankly thats understandable. To put into past context, I dint think the French people shed any tears when the French Resistance blew up a bunch of Germans during the Nazi occupation, and they did target German civilians in France too. There will always be a tendency to sympathize with those who fight oppression regardless of the methods that are used, deplorable as they might be. But we cannot get into who did what to whom, because both sides are equally guilty.

I look at this issue as a moral issue. Quite simply I view the Occupation of the West Bank as illegal and immoral. Like all countries (including the US) I do not accept the rationalization of Israel seizing land that doesn't belong to them. I feel we are are on the wrong side of this argument. And as long as America supports the occupation we are going to feel some blow back from it.

Understandable, I support Israel on the premises, that they are there now, what they are doing is morally wrong in my heart, and I feel a pullout should be placed in order, but if I don't see a problem of Israel sticking to their guns after a pullout, regardless if its right or not, they are there, there is no going back now, no going back to Europe, and idc what people might say now, after a complete pullout, and giving the Palestinians their rightful lands back, there would still be groups in that region of the world that would still launch attacks into Israel, and on the behalf of those who can't help it that they are born Israeli, Israel should like any other country in the world, should have the full right to defend itself,against attacks that I can almost garuntee that will occur afterward.

 

[mmarsh]

Understandable, I support Israel on the premises, that they are there now, what they are doing is morally wrong in my heart, and I feel a pullout should be placed in order, but if I don't see a problem of Israel sticking to their guns after a pullout, regardless if its right or not, they are there, there is no going back now, no going back to Europe, and idc what people might say now, after a complete pullout, and giving the Palestinians their rightful lands back, there would still be groups in that region of the world that would still launch attacks into Israel, and on the behalf of those who can't help it that they are born Israeli, Israel should like any other country in the world, should have the full right to defend itself,against attacks that I can almost garuntee that will occur afterward.

No one is suggesting the Destruction of the Isreali state except for the radicals. What is being asked is that Isreal return to the 1967 "Green Zone" border, which was the original boundaries of Israel, before they occupied the West Bank and Gaza. That is a very reasonable request.

Instead Isreal has devoloped a policy of annexing terroritory that doesnt belong to them based solely of the extreme right-wing interpretations of their religion. Imagine your anger if the Muslims kicked you out of your own house, because according only to them 3000 years ago "GOD" had promised it to them. Of course I would resist the occupation too, as would any sane person would.

Yes there are going to be groups that attack Israel (and America by Proxy) regardless, but they wont have the local support they once did. The situation would eventually defuse itself. But it wont defuse itself without a sincere negiociation. If Isreal and America want peace then they are going to have to deal with the Palestines. If there is no independent Palestine, neither country will sleep soundly at night.

 

[captiva303]

the middle east right now is a very delicate balancing act. Even the slightest change could shift power and lead to ww3. so me i would try and mantain the status quo in a sense, but i would try and cement peace by removing the triggers for war,
by giving the Palestinians a legitimate home land by restoring 1967 or 1948 take your pic, and the chance to create effective governance whilst maintaining the state of Israel

the reason people of around the world hate America is because they feel rightfully or wrongfully that America is involving it self in other people business when they feel that America has no right to do so. but of course they dislike America because of its affiliation with Israel but this isn't the main reason it was attacked...

 

[Yossarian]

No one is suggesting the Destruction of the Isreali state except for the radicals. What is being asked is that Isreal return to the 1967 "Green Zone" border, which was the original boundaries of Israel, before they occupied the West Bank and Gaza. That is a very reasonable request.

Instead Isreal has devoloped a policy of annexing terroritory that doesnt belong to them based solely of the extreme right-wing interpretations of their religion. Imagine your anger if the Muslims kicked you out of your own house, because according only to them 3000 years ago "GOD" had promised it to them. Of course I would resist the occupation too, as would any sane person would.

Yes there are going to be groups that attack Israel (and America by Proxy) regardless, but they wont have the local support they once did. The situation would eventually defuse itself. But it wont defuse itself. If Israel and America want peace then they are going to have to deal with the Palestines. If there is no independent Palestine, neither country will sleep soundly at night.

And thats all I hope for, morals are nice, but lets face it, if you like cake, then well, you like both peoples agreeing to returnt the rightful land without bloodshed placed upon either. Now if you like icing, then that would be Isreal living in peace afterward, and not bothering Palestine, but if you don't get the Icing, hey at least you still have the cake.