when will people learn
Corocotta
Active member
I think that US society is very violent. I really do not understand how easily can you buy a semi automatic rifle and carry it with you while you go to the supermarket. It is strange for me. I also heard that some banks will give a gun to every costumer that open an account...may be it is just bulls*it, but never know...
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
staurofilakes said:
On the flip side, they're a tough bunch.
I think the gun thing needs serious consideration.
It should be like in Austria. You need special licenses for handguns. Rifles? Go ahead.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I think this is a case of nutters with guns are dangerous and when you have 300 million people they can do a lot of damage, in many ways I think this is a symptom of the lowering of personal responsibility expectations world wide.
I disagree completely, having spent a lot of time in the US I can say that I have never at any stage felt in danger there infact I would go as far as saying that there are areas of New Zealand I avoid before areas of the US. As for the rifle thing well to my knowledge thats not entirely the case although I really dont fully understand US gun laws.
staurofilakes said:
remember where you are staurofilakes! perhaps refering to michael moore films is the wrong thing to do! however parts of bowling for columbine were right on the money IMO.
put it this way, the only difference between myself and the columbine shooters was the access to firearms ( i even remember thinking at the time that i would've done the same thing....i SYMPATHISED with them!)
i listened to metal, played violent games, was bullied by "jocks"
it all comes back to gun ownership.
the king of england isn't going to come back to reclaim the colony!
but in saying that, the US is so deep in arms it would take a long and difficult process to get them to the stage of gun ownership & licenseing as it is in say; Britian, Australia, or NZ
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Right. I lived in Washington DC for 4 1/2 years.
We had 9/11 and the sniper incident and of course the regular murders etc. but no, generally it was okay. As long as you avoid the bad spots. Just like in many other places really.
We had 9/11 and the sniper incident and of course the regular murders etc. but no, generally it was okay. As long as you avoid the bad spots. Just like in many other places really.
so where are the spots you avoid in NZ monty? 
far enough on the pecentage side of things too....after all we had aramoana
but we aren't just talking about psychopaths....what about whenever a school kid gets upset they see walking into a common room at school with a machine gun is the best way to show his disaproval?
what about the total gun deaths in the states? per population?
surely the "easier" access to some heavy duty weapons makes this a serious issue?
far enough on the pecentage side of things too....after all we had aramoana
but we aren't just talking about psychopaths....what about whenever a school kid gets upset they see walking into a common room at school with a machine gun is the best way to show his disaproval?
what about the total gun deaths in the states? per population?
surely the "easier" access to some heavy duty weapons makes this a serious issue?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I think it's kinda unfair to compare it with New Zealand though. From what I know of that place it's supposed to be extremely peaceful. As in EXTREMELY. Any place would seem violent compared to that. But I don't know New Zealand well so...
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Pretty much anywhere in south Auckland, most of the smaller east coast North island towns, specific areas of New Plymouth (being based there now).
I really just dont accept the "ban guns" and the problem is solved argument because if someone is going to go nuts with a weapon they are going to use whatever is at hand, I accept that you might keep the death toll down by removing guns from the equation but it wont solve the problem.
You obviously havent spent time in NZ, I think we have one of the highest family violence rates in the world if not the highest, the only real difference here is that we tend to beat the crap out of each other rather than shoot each other.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Damn! I stand corrected! Then again I did post a disclaimer :lol:
Don't blame guns for the murders! If you wanted to kill somebody, you could easily do it with any object that is around you.
I blame America's gun rules though. Not about the weapons you can get, but how easily you can own one and how you can use it irresponsibly. You can basically have your firearm loaded and lying around anywhere in your house!
In Australia we must put our firearms in metal safes or lockers. Ammunition must be stored seperatly in a hidden/locked container. Everyone who wants to have a firearm licence must do a police firearm safety course and must have good reasons to own a firearm. You must be in a club, private job that involves pest control or own a farm. These rules have kept Australia somewhat safe but criminals still have access to firearms.
I blame America's gun rules though. Not about the weapons you can get, but how easily you can own one and how you can use it irresponsibly. You can basically have your firearm loaded and lying around anywhere in your house!
In Australia we must put our firearms in metal safes or lockers. Ammunition must be stored seperatly in a hidden/locked container. Everyone who wants to have a firearm licence must do a police firearm safety course and must have good reasons to own a firearm. You must be in a club, private job that involves pest control or own a farm. These rules have kept Australia somewhat safe but criminals still have access to firearms.
Well allowing guns will make it easier for the maniacs. Then again, you can probably do more damage when using a car or a truck to kill people. This shows that anyone can be irresponsible with any kind of tool. Of course we wouldn't ban those things because they can kill people.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I actually blame a part (though I don't know just HOW much) on the "gangster" glorification that goes on. This isn't just limited to gangsta rap.
Basically what it does is it glorifies
- Crime, civil disobedience etc.
- being uneducated
- being piss poor
- mistreating women
Violence on TV or media isn't ALWAYS bad. Because a lot of it's education. i.e. martial arts programs. These programs are definately geared on the violent, but they teach you the ethics of attaining these new skills.
Also historic films or other films that show a person who is unafraid of a villain's use of violence to subedue people and in return returns the favor the the bad guy.
But basically NOTHING can come good from rewarding kids for bad behavior.
Just how big of an impact this makes I don't know.
Basically what it does is it glorifies
- Crime, civil disobedience etc.
- being uneducated
- being piss poor
- mistreating women
Violence on TV or media isn't ALWAYS bad. Because a lot of it's education. i.e. martial arts programs. These programs are definately geared on the violent, but they teach you the ethics of attaining these new skills.
Also historic films or other films that show a person who is unafraid of a villain's use of violence to subedue people and in return returns the favor the the bad guy.
But basically NOTHING can come good from rewarding kids for bad behavior.
Just how big of an impact this makes I don't know.
ARMYMOM
Active member
Seriously! Not everyone in America owns a gun! As far as how hard it is to own one it depends on the State you live in. Some states you can buy one pretty much anywhere & get a licence to carry easily. Other states it is not so easy. There are waiting periods & background checks & such. Some you have to have a reason to carry like your occupation. My State (massachusettes) has pretty tough gun laws.
unfortunately anyone can get a gun illegally & carry it illegally nowadays. But that is not everyone.
unfortunately anyone can get a gun illegally & carry it illegally nowadays. But that is not everyone.
03USMC
Active member
staurofilakes said:
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot over? Carry a Semiauto Rifle to the Supermarket. Where in Gods name do come up with this :cen: . Carrying a weapon (handgun) unless you are civilian with a permit or a Police Officer get you arrested for illegal possession of a concealed handgun in most states. Some States allow exposed /open carry by statute in limited venues but they are subject to Municipal Ordinance which can ban carry to everyone but Law Enforcement Officers.
Carrying a Weapon... The SemiAuto Rifle you refer too at sling arms while picking up eggs and bread at the local Shop and Save will guarentee you a heart to heart with the local Constabulary. Generally at Gunpoint. It's called brandishing /flourishing a firearm, possession of a firearm with the intent to go armed, menacing with deadly weapon and whatever else Officer Friendly can find in the charge code. Get a Good Lawyer.
Banks giving away Rifles. Aaaaaaah a Michael (The King of half truths) Moore fan. Well that explains alot. The bank did in fact offer Remington and Savage Hunting Rifles for opening new accounts of a certain dollar amount. What Commie Mike didn't tell you ( perhaps because he was so busy devouring twinkies) was that you picked them up after all necessary clearances had been made.
As far as Gun laws New York City, and the District of Columbia have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. And they consistently rank highest in Gun Violence. Care to guess how many of your Garden Variety Gang Bangers, Street Thugs and Predators go to Uncle Walleys Guns and Ammo fill out the required Federal, State and Local paperwork then wait the 10 to 15 days take a permit class and then carry legally?
Whispering Death
Active member
There are always going to be nutjobs who are going to do crazy things.
He probobly wasn't raised very well and by people who didn't see the warning signs.
Proper gun safety should have been exercised to prevent the guns from being stolen.
Blame? I'm not really sure there is so much blame as there is tragedy that a situation like this happens.
He probobly wasn't raised very well and by people who didn't see the warning signs.
Proper gun safety should have been exercised to prevent the guns from being stolen.
Blame? I'm not really sure there is so much blame as there is tragedy that a situation like this happens.
Charge 7
Master Gunner
Odd to find myself agreeing with MontyB but he's got it right in this discussion. It's a percentages situation. 300 million people will indeed create more gory headlines than a much smaller population. Gun ownership, btw, isn't quite so easy as you seem to think it is. Granted some places are lax in background checks occasionally and there is a movement for stiffening that up. And even as it is now, you can't bring a semi automatic to the supermarket without a police patrol car waiting for you when you leave the checkout. An exception to this would be areas like where I live. Small towns where the local general store is also the game reporting station. You bring your deer there to have it weighed and accounted for in deer season. Still that's a limited number of days during the year.
But stronger gun laws wouldn't have done much to stop this incident. The boy got the gun from his grandfather who was retired police officer. I doubt any gun laws would prohibit law officers from having guns. I don't think it's a question of access to guns. We've had them all along in the 400 years that this country has been in existence - first as a European colony and then as an independant nation.
These incidents are a relatively new phenomenon. They didn't start showing up until movies, TV, and video games made violence an everyday event for young people and in so doing made it impersonal and unrealistic. That isn't all the entirety of the equation, however, society itself is most of the rest of it. We've grown apart as a society. Malls have replaced village street stores, jobs demand much more parental time, and neighbors can live for years right beside each other and never know anything about one another. I count myself fortunate to live in an area of the country that has not seen a great deal of that change in society. We have plenty of guns, see the movies, TV shows and video games, but in the past year there were only 8 murders in Vermont out of a population of 600,000. And 6 of those murders were a drunken spouse (4 men and 2 women) who killed their wife or husband. The other 2 murders were a couple of out-of-state teenagers who murdered a elderly couple and robbed them.
So I think you can make all the gun laws you want, but if you don't do something to make society cohesive again it won't make a damn bit of difference. Taming down the movies, TV, and the video games or restricting their audiences more effectively by age would be a big help and IMO more help than tougher gun laws. There's a saying here among gun advocates "When you criminalize owning guns only criminals will have guns". This is, of course, a much greater land mass than New Zealand. We can't search for guns like you can or require people to lock them up. There are endless tracks of land that weapons caches could be kept. No, it is society that we must change - not gun laws.
But stronger gun laws wouldn't have done much to stop this incident. The boy got the gun from his grandfather who was retired police officer. I doubt any gun laws would prohibit law officers from having guns. I don't think it's a question of access to guns. We've had them all along in the 400 years that this country has been in existence - first as a European colony and then as an independant nation.
These incidents are a relatively new phenomenon. They didn't start showing up until movies, TV, and video games made violence an everyday event for young people and in so doing made it impersonal and unrealistic. That isn't all the entirety of the equation, however, society itself is most of the rest of it. We've grown apart as a society. Malls have replaced village street stores, jobs demand much more parental time, and neighbors can live for years right beside each other and never know anything about one another. I count myself fortunate to live in an area of the country that has not seen a great deal of that change in society. We have plenty of guns, see the movies, TV shows and video games, but in the past year there were only 8 murders in Vermont out of a population of 600,000. And 6 of those murders were a drunken spouse (4 men and 2 women) who killed their wife or husband. The other 2 murders were a couple of out-of-state teenagers who murdered a elderly couple and robbed them.
So I think you can make all the gun laws you want, but if you don't do something to make society cohesive again it won't make a damn bit of difference. Taming down the movies, TV, and the video games or restricting their audiences more effectively by age would be a big help and IMO more help than tougher gun laws. There's a saying here among gun advocates "When you criminalize owning guns only criminals will have guns". This is, of course, a much greater land mass than New Zealand. We can't search for guns like you can or require people to lock them up. There are endless tracks of land that weapons caches could be kept. No, it is society that we must change - not gun laws.