What is your opinion on Blackwater?

Gator said:
I believe once the Democrats take over all of Washington D.C. that Blackwater will be out of a job totally, and I can only hope that the Democrats do not just hire a Democrat Company in place of a Republican Company (Blackwater) to do the same thing.
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Are you saying that Blackwater is owned by the Republican Party?
 
bulldogg said:
^^^ Gotta agree with the big wave on this one folks. MMarsh, you are making statements that read as though you are proclaiming facts. Do you have proof or is this indisgestion of the personal kind? If you claim these as facts can you please provide chapter and verse for the following claims...

1. Blackwater employees engaging in terrorist activities.

2. Blackwater employees or the company making a statement explicitly or implicitly stating they are above everything (I assume you mean the law).

3. The records of an investigation proving claims against Blackwater employees that they "impersonated police officers".

I wait with salivating intellect.
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I could actually, as I have in the past, so you know by now that I am not afraid to answer you. But then I remember that last time we had a very similar discussion not too long ago. In case you forgot, I'll remind you. The last time you demanded proof on something from me, I gave it to you as you requested. Perhaps you disagreed with it, thats your right. But when I asked you for proof on something else not only you refused to provide it, but that you made a rather rude gesture to another member who also asked you about it. Remember I said I would never answer another question from you because of it?

I am not going to get into a flame-war with you, but this discussion isn't played by you getting to ask all the questions. Play fair, or don't play at all.
 
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So you're demonstrating what number 2 on the list looks like, cheers for that. Kids, take a good look at how to act when you are above the rules.
 
mmarsh said:
Obviously, they were doing what the employer wanted them to do. But Rent-a-Cop is not the same as a *real* cop. Despite Blackwater claims, There is NO EVIDENCE of anybody deputizing them legally, neither in DHS or the Governors Office. That means thay were acting illegally.

Thats not a judgment, thats a FELONY.

There was another PMC that acted as if they were a Police Force in Germany during the 1930's, they were called the SA.
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Well having had boots on the ground post Katrina in NOLA I'll tell you this. God knows what NOPD, LSP & OPSO were doing and deputizing let alone what the Mayor and Gov's offices were pullin outta their 6's.

The prosecuting attorneys for Orleans Parrish, South La., and NOLA have been pretty good at bustin officials who overstepped be they Cop's, Security or Military.

So if you have hard evidence that BW skated on this charge why don't you post it and save the head buttin for the PM's.
 
03USMC said:
Well having had boots on the ground post Katrina in NOLA I'll tell you this. God knows what NOPD, LSP & OPSO were doing and deputizing let alone what the Mayor and Gov's offices were pullin outta their 6's.

The prosecuting attorneys for Orleans Parrish, South La., and NOLA have been pretty good at bustin officials who overstepped be they Cop's, Security or Military.

So if you have hard evidence that BW skated on this charge why don't you post it and save the head buttin for the PM's.
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Here is the article

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill

I'll paraphrase:

"When asked what authority they were operating under, one guy said, "We're on contract with the Department of Homeland Security." Then, pointing to one of his comrades, he said, "He was even deputized by the governor of the state of Louisiana. We can make arrests and use lethal force if we deem it necessary." The man then held up the gold Louisiana law enforcement badge he wore around his neck. Blackwater spokesperson Anne Duke also said the company has a letter from Louisiana officials authorizing its forces to carry loaded weapons".

That's Blackwater version of events. But I cannot find anything from either the Governors Office, the NOPD, or the DHS that collaborates these claims.

The fact that some hired these guys is beyond doubt, but I don't see anything to supports their claims of having law enforcement abilities. I am not even sure the DHS has the power to deputize local law enforcement, but I could be wrong on this.

One guy claims he was Deputized by DHS, another directly by the Governor, and the talk heads said they got a letter from LA officials. Thats 3 different stories. Sounds more like a Fish Story.

If they really were Deputized, then fine. But if it turns out the Blackwater (or other PMC) employees were pulling fake badges on people, the REAL badges need to be called in. We cannot allow for private citizens working for private military/security companies to declare themselves police officers, and I don't care who they were working for: They are not cops.

Its bad enough in Iraq, but I'll be damned if we allow that s*** here.
 
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It is also known that Louisiana's Department of Homeland Security contracted with Blackwater to provide public law enforcement services in New Orleans following hurricane Katrina.
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http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=40485
A bastion of liberal thought out to sully the Blackwater name admits that they had a DHS contract to provide LE services.

The Department of Homeland Security hired these same Blackwater contractors to patrol the streets of New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina -- for a contract valued at about $73 million.
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http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=201424
Oh, there's another one...

And all be damned here's a link of an official DHS pdf ofl docs referencing said contract, damn I'm good...
http://www.dhs.gov/xoig/assets/katovrsght/OIG_GC_HQ_06-17.pdf

That's why they weren't charged with a crime, they didn't commit one. Legally contracted to work as LEOs by the Department of Homeland Security. They would have been sworn in by various officials as they reported.

You're welcome.
 
Bulldogg.

Read your Articles Again. Your're way off.

1st Article -refers to Lexington Kentucky in October 17 2007. Thats nice, but I am talking about September 2005 in New Orleans Louisiana. You are 2 years and 400 miles off. But regardless the article says say to provide Training, not to become LEOs. Thats not exactly the same thing.

2nd Article -Read it again Closely... Its Says in the opening paragraph. For security purposes. It specifically states they are to Guard FEMA installations. You didnt read what I said. I already stated I knew DHS had hired Blackwater. But read the whole document. It says NOTHING about being Blackwater employees being Elevated to Law Enforcement Status (ie. being Deputized). A blackwater security guard is not a cop or any other type of LEO. All he was a private citizen with a gun hired to free up time for the REAL cops (who had enough on their hands at that time).

I am not certain the DHS can legally deputize PMC as an state LEO. In the Constitution there is a separation of Federal and State powers. It strikes me as unconstitutional that a Federal agancy can appoint people into State/City Police. I might be wrong on this, but I don't think so. I have never heard of it happening before. But again I don't swear to it.

What I want is proof that either Governor Kathleen Blanco or the DHS Deputized BlackWater personnel into the NOPD or some other Federal or State LEO agency. You provide me that, and I'll admit I was wrong and you were right. But so far you are not even close.
 
I am an English teacher, I have a degree in English and I teach reading comprehension among other things. In my professional opinion I believe that perhaps you should give up on English as a medium of communication. I have read the articles and they are about a different issue but as you can clearly see from what I quoted for you and others to read they do reference Blackwater having a contract to provide law enforcement services.

The PDF also clearly states they had a contract to provide law enforcement services and is a review of said contract. I know one contractor who was there and they were sworn in as duly deputized law enforcement officers with all powers pertaining to said job. As for your uncertainty about American law, colour me surprised.
 
Well having read the PDF document from DHS I can say it's brought alot of things to light. Things that probably aren't understood by the General Public or journo's.

BW was contracted by Federal Protective Services (FPS) to provide static security to FEMA installations. FPS is the federal LEA tasked with protection of goverment building's installations etc such as Federal Court Houses and Office Buildings. It's common for FPS to hire private security companies to maintain static posts and the FPS officer to remain patrol/reaction mobile in the building and outside area.

The officers assigned to these posts are required to pass muster with the OIC of the FPS Section for that installation. Some of the requirements include LEO or Military experiance, clean back ground and proper training.At the Federal Court House and Federal Building in my area a good number of the Security Officers are serving or retired cops.

These guys are not Rent a Cop's as some would have you believe. They have limited on site powers of detention and may use necessary force up to and including deadly force in the performance of their duties. These power's are extended thru their contract with FPS and are a matter of employment while they are "on the clock". Actual arrests are made and followed up by FPS.But these guys can damn sure prone you out at gun point, handcuff you and hold you till FPS gets there to transport you to the Marshal's Service Lock up.

So if BW was contracted by FPS then they would have at least the following.
1. Limited on site Detention Powers

2. Authorization to use force in the course of their duties.

And yes probably Badges since FLEA's like their contractors to be readily ID'd by their officers/agents.

So it would seem to me that BW post Katrina did in fact have a limited "deputization" of sorts that is common with the contracting agency. So to me the whole NOLA issue is moot.
 
USMC03

But If you go back to the original article. It says that Black water wasn't just protecting static sites they were hired to do, but active foot and car patrols on NO streets, not in the vicinity of the FEMA areas they were supposed to be protecting.

I can accept the fact they might have limited powers in the areas they were hired to protect, many security companies do. But I didnt see anything that remotely permitted to do foot and vehicles patrols on the city Streets as stipulated in the Article. Thats seems like a VAST enlargement of their mandate.

Secondly, if what you say is true they wouldn't they have deputized everybody in BW. That isn't what the artricle is saying. It is saying that only some were Deputized and some weren't. And it also says that some were deputized directly by the Govornor and others by the DHS.

My problem with the story is that their isn't one statement from the Blackwater side of the argument that remains constant. In other words the story is told a couple of different ways. They cannot all be right.

I have no doubt that they got a contract from DHS, I knew about that way before bd showed up. The devil is in the details. To me, The DHS contract doesnt accurately explain what their role really was.

For example. If I am walking down Bourbonne Street (a Public Street) and a BW patrol attempts to stop/detain me for (whatever) reason, do they have the legal justification to so without actual deputization from the govornor. That is the heart of my question.

Can you shed any light?
 
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Seriously, though, when you look at NO, there was a lot of shinola that the news didn't cover. There were firefights down there- Pro bass fisherman Greg Hackney rounded up all the guns and kevlar he could find, drove into NO in a bass boat, and picked up his father. Yes, BW may have overstepped their bounds by not being completely static in their work, but to say "this happened- it was out of the contract and must obviously be wrong in the eyes of the court" does not take into consideration the unusual circumstances that naturally breed and multiply in a disorganized situation.
 
mmarsh said:
USMC03

But If you go back to the original article. It says that Black water wasn't just protecting static sites they were hired to do, but active foot and car patrols on NO streets, not in the vicinity of the FEMA areas they were supposed to be protecting.

I can accept the fact they might have limited powers in the areas they were hired to protect, many security companies do. But I didnt see anything that remotely permitted to do foot and vehicles patrols on the city Streets as stipulated in the Article. Thats seems like a VAST enlargement of their mandate.

Secondly, if what you say is true they wouldn't they have deputized everybody in BW. That isn't what the artricle is saying. It is saying that only some were Deputized and some weren't. And it also says that some were deputized directly by the Govornor and others by the DHS.

My problem with the story is that their isn't one statement from the Blackwater side of the argument that remains constant. In other words the story is told a couple of different ways. They cannot all be right.

I have no doubt that they got a contract from DHS, I knew about that way before bd showed up. The devil is in the details. To me, The DHS contract doesnt accurately explain what their role really was.

For example. If I am walking down Bourbonne Street (a Public Street) and a BW patrol attempts to stop/detain me for (whatever) reason, do they have the legal justification to so without actual deputization from the govornor. That is the heart of my question.

Can you shed any light?
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I know about the Federal Building's here. So I can speak to that and I think it would probably be the same for most FPS contracts.

The PSO's do roving foot patrols around the building and parking lots the entire Federal area is considered their post. They also have supervisory officers who patrol the area in vehicles and go between the 3 Federal Area's that are considered their post. So they are considered to be on post even though they aren't static per sey and can detain persons within a narrow peramiter while on patrol if Federal Property is involved.

It would also not surprise me to learn that in NOLA at the time while operating under the auspice of FPS that they were also granted powers by the state to protect State Proprety also. MP units were so during the chaos nothing was out of the question. Cross Deputization would have saved Blanco a little jing since most of the people were on the Fed's tab.
 
USMC03 + Deerslayer

Thank You for the explanation, what you say makes sense now.

It fact, I still believe what BW did wasn't 100% legal, but its true that in the context of a dire situation it might have been necessary to temporarily overlook some of the legalities and focus on the job at hand.

I do believe that in all emergencies such as this, the job of security should been left to the LA National Guard, whose diminished capacity at home lead to the necessity of bringing in these outsiders. I wish we would be able to avoid such drastic measures in the future.

Its also refreshing to have people here that can discuss things rationally and use logic, instead of certain other people, whose sole method of getting their point across are personal attacks and name-calling.

Thanks to both of you.
 
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