What is your opinion on Blackwater?

See, the thing is, mmarsh, you fell into what I call the "average civvie/journo trap": You criticized the actions of a company whose motive, purpose, situation, etc. you may not have totally been aware of (NOLA incident), then failed to see the need for martial law or other desperate measures in a situation that had spiraled out of control. It's no big deal in the long run- you weren't on the ground. We will never have an accurate body count for Katrina, while we're on it.
Last night I read a TIME article on Blackwater, referring to their men as "operatives":

As I understand it, the proper terms for such people include "operaTOR", "shooter", "mercenary", etc. I've read that there are certain legal and organizational reasons for not referring to such types of people as "operative" or "agent". A faux pas on TIME's part, but still excusable under the circumstances. See what I'm saying?
 
See, the thing is, mmarsh, you fell into what I call the "average civvie/journo trap": You criticized the actions of a company whose motive, purpose, situation, etc. you may not have totally been aware of (NOLA incident), then failed to see the need for martial law or other desperate measures in a situation that had spiraled out of control. It's no big deal in the long run- you weren't on the ground. We will never have an accurate body count for Katrina, while we're on it.
Last night I read a TIME article on Blackwater, referring to their men as "operatives":

As I understand it, the proper terms for such people include "operaTOR", "shooter", "mercenary", etc. I've read that there are certain legal and organizational reasons for not referring to such types of people as "operative" or "agent". A faux pas on TIME's part, but still excusable under the circumstances. See what I'm saying?

Actually I still do think Blackwater acted illegally. In fact, I am convinced of it due to the fact that not one of their stories seemed to mesh. I have a BS detector that is rather sensitive. I don't think we will ever know what happened for sure, not that it matters.

However, I concede that in they chaos describe by you and USMC03 I now acknowledge that it might have been necessary to dispense with all the "legalities" in order to bring calm to a tense period. Therefore I am willing to overlook the incident and give BW the benefit of the doubt this time. Although I would prefer that in the future such missions be handled by the NG and not a private organization.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bulldogg

Its is true that you found the documents but your explanation was vague. It took 2 other people (who were actually on the ground) to explain their true significance, after which I reevaluated my position.

Secondly, you couldn't help yourself to a unprovoked personal attack on me which cost you any other recognition that you deserved. Insulting people generally not a good way to earn their respect or to convince them that you are right.
 
Last edited:
Hey, I never said I didn't condone their actions, or that they did or didn't act illegally. Yes, I've noticed that their statements don't all jive as well- take our statements at face value rather than trying to incite an argument by reading incorrectly into them.
 
Deerslayer

I am agreeing with you. Its because you are sharing your experiences that I am modifying my views, you and USMC03 made your point.

As for inciting an argument, where on earth did I do that? By stating an opinion contrary to other people views? Thats not inciting an argument.
*Certain* people simply have no tolerance for opposing views. Instead of using reason, they get angry and use insults to try and get their point across as they think this makes them more intelligent. There is only 1 person here whose's angry, and believe me when I say its not the first time.
 
Last edited:
Actually I still do think Blackwater acted illegally. In fact, I am convinced of it due to the fact that not one of their stories seemed to mesh. I have a BS detector that is rather sensitive. I don't think we will ever know what happened for sure, not that it matters.

However, I concede that in they chaos describe by you and USMC03 I now acknowledge that it might have been necessary to dispense with all the "legalities" in order to bring calm to a tense period. Therefore I am willing to overlook the incident and give BW the benefit of the doubt this time. Although I would prefer that in the future such missions be handled by the NG and not a private organization.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bulldogg

Its is true that you found the documents but your explanation was vague. It took 2 other people (who were actually on the ground) to explain their true significance, after which I reevaluated my position.

Secondly, you couldn't help yourself to a unprovoked personal attack on me which cost you any other recognition that you deserved. Insulting people generally not a good way to earn their respect or to convince them that you are right.
:type:

:read:

:love:

:sarc:
 
wait, who said I was on the ground in NOLA? During Katrina I spent my time either at home or at a buddy's camp in the Atchafalaya Basin. I just live in the state, mano. Don't misquote me- this is what I was talking about earlier.
 
hellfrozeover.png
 
For changing your story, I'm beginning to think you're as bad as Blackwater, mmarsh. Please try to state your ideas a little more clearly next time:)
 
For changing your story, I'm beginning to think you're as bad as Blackwater, mmarsh. Please try to state your ideas a little more clearly next time:)

I never said I changed my story. My opinion about Blackwater remains unchanged as I have already stated. What I said was that have re-considered my opinion from a different perspective of the entire situation. In other words: I think Blackwater acted illegally, but given the circumstances it should be overlooked.

In order to do properly research a subject, one has to continually look at it from all the perspectives, failing to do so is to be narrow-minded. In this case, I was shown a perspective I had not considered, and that it forced me to modify (but not completely change) my beliefs accordingly.
 
Last edited:
Out of the Frying Pan, and right into the Fire.

Blackwater bodyguards promised immunity
State Department gave protection to all guards in deadly Iraq incident
Updated: 5:47 p.m. ET Oct 29, 2007
WASHINGTON - The State Department promised Blackwater USA bodyguards immunity from prosecution in its investigation of last month’s deadly shooting of 17 Iraqi civilians, The Associated Press has learned.
As a result, it will likely be months before the United States can — if ever — bring criminal charges in the case that has infuriated the Iraqi government.
“Once you give immunity, you can’t take it away,” said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation.

A State Department spokesman did not have an immediate comment Monday. Both Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd and FBI spokesman Rich Kolko declined comment.
FBI agents were returning to Washington late Monday from Baghdad, where they have been trying to collect evidence in the Sept. 16 embassy convoy shooting without using statements from Blackwater employees who were given immunity.
Three senior law enforcement officials said all the Blackwater bodyguards involved — both in the vehicle convoy and in at least two helicopters above — were given the legal protections as investigators from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security sought to find out what happened. The bureau is an arm of the State Department.
Strained relationship with Iraq
The investigative misstep comes in the wake of already-strained relations between the United States and Iraq, which is demanding the right to launch its own prosecution of the Blackwater bodyguards.
Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell declined comment about the U.S. investigation. Based in Moyock, N.C., Blackwater USA is the largest private security firm protecting U.S. diplomats in Iraq.
The company has said its Sept. 16 convoy was under attack before it opened fire in west Baghdad’s Nisoor Square, killing 17 Iraqis. A follow-up investigation by the Iraqi government, however, concluded that Blackwater’s men were unprovoked. No witnesses have been found to contradict that finding.
An initial incident report by U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in Iraq, also indicated “no enemy activity involved” in the Sept. 16 incident. The report says Blackwater guards were traveling against the flow of traffic through a traffic circle when they “engaged five civilian vehicles with small arms fire” at a distance of 50 meters.
The FBI took over the case early this month, officials said, after prosecutors in the Justice Department’s criminal division realized it could not bring charges against Blackwater guards based on their statements to the Diplomatic Security investigators.
Official: Guards spoke after given protection
Officials said the Blackwater bodyguards spoke only after receiving so-called “Garrity” protections, requiring that their statements only be used internally — and not for criminal prosecutions.
At that point, the Justice Department shifted the investigation to prosecutors in its national security division, sealing the guards’ statements and attempting to build a case based on other evidence from a crime scene that was then already two weeks old.
The FBI has re-interviewed some of the Blackwater employees, and one official said Monday that at least several of them have refused to answer questions, citing their constitutional right to avoid self-incrimination. Any statements that the guards give to the FBI could be used to bring criminal charges.
A second official, however, said that not all the guards have cited their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination — leaving open the possibility for future charges. The official declined to elaborate.
Prosecutors will have to prove that any evidence they use in bringing charges against Blackwater employees was uncovered without using the guards’ statements to State Department investigators. They “have to show we got the information independently,” one official said.
.

CONTINUED: Rare move to offer all witnesses protection
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21533017/page/2/


I didn't think my opinion of Blackwater and the State Department could sink any lower, but seems like there is no bottom.
 
This is all so much political BS. Whenever a story is garnering so many headlines you need to read the small articles more carefully, something is being done behind this smokescreen no one wants public.
 
idk i fell they have their own uses. If someone is willing to pay them to go overthere than so be it. As for the quote, that is one time where you dont know who could be in the car. If the green berets had the same thing happen to them and they were the ones escorting they would probably have done the same thing. Also you dont know who was in that vehicle maybe it was someone they were prosecuting for killing US soldiers and a hot headed (crazy :/) soldier shot them. What then? I am by no means saying what they did was right or called for, but you never know the whole situation unless your there :?

I guess i would say that im neutral on them.:|
 
The Tv/Newspaper is famous for over exaggerating story's though. You almost have to be there, or have a actual source from someone who was. But this type of scenario, has happened so many times with Black Water. I don't really even know what to believe anymore.
 
U.S. Repeatedly Rebuffed Iraq on Blackwater Complaints[SIZE=-1]By Sudarsan Raghavan and Steve Fainaru
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, September 23, 2007; A18[/SIZE]

BAGHDAD, Sept. 22 -- Senior Iraqi officials repeatedly complained to U.S. officials about Blackwater USA's alleged involvement in the deaths of numerous Iraqis, but the Americans took little action to regulate the private security firm until 11 Iraqis were shot dead last Sunday, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials.

Before that episode, U.S. officials were made aware in high-level meetings and formal memorandums of Blackwater's alleged transgressions. They included six violent incidents this year allegedly involving the North Carolina firm that left a total of 10 Iraqis dead, the officials said.
"There were no concrete results," Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamal, the deputy interior minister who oversees the private security industry on behalf of the Iraqi government, said in an interview Saturday.

The lack of a U.S. response underscores the powerlessness of Iraqi officials to control the tens of thousands of security contractors who operate under U.S.-drafted Iraqi regulations that shield them from Iraqi laws. It also raises questions about how seriously the United States will seek to regulate Blackwater, now the subject of at least three investigations by Iraqi and U.S. authorities. Blackwater, which operates under State Department authority, protects nearly all senior U.S. politicians and civilian officials here.

U.S. Embassy officials did not respond to several requests to describe what action, if any, was taken in response to the six incidents involving Blackwater. Mirembe Nantongo, a U.S. Embassy spokeswoman, said the embassy always looks into anything "outside of normal operation procedures."

In the United States, Blackwater is facing a possible federal investigation over allegations that it illegally smuggled weapons into Iraq that later might have been sold on the black market. The accusation first appeared in the Raleigh News & Observer. The company on Saturday denied the allegations, calling them "baseless."

"The company has no knowledge of any employee improperly exporting weapons," Anne Tyrell, a Blackwater spokeswoman, said in a statement.
In its probe, Iraq's Interior Ministry concluded that Blackwater fired without provocation into cars about noon last Sunday in Nisoor Square in the Mansour neighborhood of western Baghdad, killing 11 and injuring 12. Blackwater has said that extremists ambushed guards protecting a State Department convoy and that they had to defend themselves.

Kamal indicated that Iraqi investigators had a videotape apparently showing Blackwater guards firing at civilians, but he declined to provide further details. On Friday, Brig. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, the chief Interior Ministry spokesman, said the ministry would refer its findings to a court for possible criminal prosecution.

"It confirms there was no justification. Blackwater started shooting," Kamal said about the probe's conclusions. "This is a crime, which under Iraqi law, and even under American law, should be punished."

U.S. investigators have not publicly released any findings. U.S. Embassy officials have declined to comment on the probe and cautioned not to draw premature conclusions.

Matthew Degn, who served as a senior adviser to the Interior Ministry's intelligence directorate until his tour in Iraq ended last month, said Kamal and other ministry officials became increasingly frustrated by their inability to persuade U.S. officials to regulate Blackwater as allegations against the company mounted.

Degn said Kamal sent a flurry of memos to company and U.S. officials in an effort to bring Blackwater into compliance. The Iraqis were concerned that the firm had refused to obtain a license to operate legally in Iraq, a process that required companies to provide sensitive personnel data and submit to weapons inspections. Blackwater also refused to answer any questions about the reported incidents.

Degn said the Iraqis were consistently rebuffed in their requests.
"Kamal went to State several times; he's the one who's been paying the price for this," Degn said. "We had numerous discussions over his frustrations with Blackwater, but every time he contacted the [U.S.] government, it went nowhere."

Degn said he became a close friend of Kamal's and shared the deputy minister's frustrations, even as he recognized the complexity of reconciling Blackwater's relationship with the Iraqis while trying to protect the State Department. Degn said Blackwater's reluctance to cooperate was understandable, given that the Iraqi Interior Ministry had been infiltrated by sectarian militia members.

Kamal said addressing Blackwater's alleged actions was also a matter of preserving Iraq's dignity and honor. Seated in his spacious office, he recalled an incident two months ago when Blackwater guards threw a water bottle at a traffic policeman. The officer was so furious that he submitted his resignation, but his superiors turned it down, Kamal said.
"This is a flagrant violation of the law," Kamal said. "This guy is an officer with a rank of a brigadier general. He was standing in the street doing his job, regulating traffic. He represents the state and the law, and yet this happened."

The topic of Blackwater's impunity was discussed during high-level meetings involving American and Iraqi officials, including Kamal, national security adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaie and senior officials from the U.S. military and the U.S. Embassy, according to sources familiar with the discussions.

Tensions escalated over a series of incidents beginning last Dec. 24, when a Blackwater employee allegedly shot and killed a bodyguard for Iraqi Vice President Adel Abdul Mahdi inside Baghdad's Green Zone. It remains unclear how the Blackwater employee was able to leave Iraq after the incident, which triggered a Justice Department investigation. No charges have been filed.

On May 24, a Blackwater team shot and killed an Iraqi driver outside the Interior Ministry gate. The incident triggered an armed standoff between Interior Ministry commandos and the Blackwater guards, who later told U.S. Embassy officials that the driver had veered too close to their convoy. Blackwater refused to give the guards' names or details of the incident to the Iraqis. The State Department said it planned to conduct an investigation, but no results have been announced.

It is unclear whether Blackwater could be criminally prosecuted in Iraq. A U.S. regulation called Order 17 enacted after the invasion by Iraq's U.S. administrators provides immunity from prosecution for private security contractors.

Kamal, a lawyer by training, suggested that Iraq's government could file lawsuits against Blackwater in U.S. courts to seek compensation for the victims.

"If Order 17 provides them with immunity from being questioned or the right to be tried under Iraqi law, it does not prevent the Iraqi government from filing suit in an American court," he said.

Fainaru reported from El Cerrito, Calif.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201424_pf.html
 
Blackwater is good for making money (for the contractors), but not as PR for the coalition forces.


PMC involvement in hotspots is only relatively recent, and they didn't have as much coverage in the media as they do now. So its no surprise that BW and other PMCs are unregulated. As time goes on, the government will learn from its mistakes and adapt laws to will more forcely regulate PMCs in future conflicts.
 
Long live free enterprise! Wow, that quote really made me mad...
Soldiers: "USMC!"
Blackwater: "Shuttup"
:neutral:
 
Back
Top