What would USA look like if the Civil War never ended?
godofthunder9010
Active member
What you are describing is what it would have looked like if the south had won. Remember, they had no aspirations of taking over the nation, they just wanted to be their own country.
It's not that hard to see what the world would be like. You'd have two bitter enemies in North America and during WW1 they probably would have picked different sides and then fought each other, largely negating the overall contribution of the United States to the Allies. This probably loses that war for the UK and France. Germany would have become enormous, controlling much of Belarus and the Ukraine. Hitler would have never risen to power because he would have never had the chance to. The old and rotting massive empires of Europe? Its hard to say what happens with the Ottoman and Austrian Empires. The Balkans would have been divied up between those two ... what portion they didn't already control. Those two would have seen something of a revival, but their systems were still failing. That probably creates a collapse for Austria, who would be "rescued" by Germany -- who gets even more gigantic. Its hard to envision what happens to the Ottomans. I'm not sure how much of the French and British Empires would have been ceded to a victorious Germany after World War I.
From there its difficult to say how things go. The UK and France would have been the victims of a raw deal similar to Versalles and would have been seeking revenge. Would they have been disarmed in the same way that Germany was disarmed? If so, the German Navy becomes the new King of the Oceans for awhile.
In North America, this scenario could prove messy. For instance, if Great Britain had intervened in favor of the South, the North would have likely taken their revenge by invading Canada -- and unlike the War of 1812, this time the United States would have been truly driven. In any case, it keeps the industrial might of the North decidedly against the the UK for a long time to come.
If Britain had stayed out, then its still not too rosey for our neighbors to the North. The North and the South would bicker a lot of who gets what pieces of the the Continent, and it may have proven to be very dangerous for both Canada and Mexico. The North and South would have been driven to outdo each other and this likely means siezing land that in real history they left alone. Numerous border wars between the two is inevitable.
It's not that hard to see what the world would be like. You'd have two bitter enemies in North America and during WW1 they probably would have picked different sides and then fought each other, largely negating the overall contribution of the United States to the Allies. This probably loses that war for the UK and France. Germany would have become enormous, controlling much of Belarus and the Ukraine. Hitler would have never risen to power because he would have never had the chance to. The old and rotting massive empires of Europe? Its hard to say what happens with the Ottoman and Austrian Empires. The Balkans would have been divied up between those two ... what portion they didn't already control. Those two would have seen something of a revival, but their systems were still failing. That probably creates a collapse for Austria, who would be "rescued" by Germany -- who gets even more gigantic. Its hard to envision what happens to the Ottomans. I'm not sure how much of the French and British Empires would have been ceded to a victorious Germany after World War I.
From there its difficult to say how things go. The UK and France would have been the victims of a raw deal similar to Versalles and would have been seeking revenge. Would they have been disarmed in the same way that Germany was disarmed? If so, the German Navy becomes the new King of the Oceans for awhile.
In North America, this scenario could prove messy. For instance, if Great Britain had intervened in favor of the South, the North would have likely taken their revenge by invading Canada -- and unlike the War of 1812, this time the United States would have been truly driven. In any case, it keeps the industrial might of the North decidedly against the the UK for a long time to come.
If Britain had stayed out, then its still not too rosey for our neighbors to the North. The North and the South would bicker a lot of who gets what pieces of the the Continent, and it may have proven to be very dangerous for both Canada and Mexico. The North and South would have been driven to outdo each other and this likely means siezing land that in real history they left alone. Numerous border wars between the two is inevitable.
The Other Guy
Spam King
Landmines. 
yikes
yikes
Duty Honor Country
Active member
the US would be one of those war torn countries like Afganistan, Liberia, Sudan, Somalia or the Balkans.
Red_Army said:
The war wasnt about slavery to the extent it was made out to be. Taxation without reperesentation, the push west for agricultural/industrial land, the retention of states rights etc. had ALOT more influance then slavery in the creation of the confederacy. hell, if you had money or owned slaves, you didnt have to fight anyhow. (30 negro law.) the fighting was done by the lower class that worked on plantations with the slaves. I believe it was 1859, the southern states was leading the vote count in the US to abolish slavery. bottom line - the Slavery issue was a bleeding heart recruitment tactic for the north to give soldiers a cause to enlist & fight for. The very first conscription act was also a recruitment tool for the north. As they say, to the victor goes the spoils, and the loser HAS to be the evil empire. but, interestingly, nobody ever talks about the child slavery going on in the northern states to make the uniforms, wepons etc. for the troops on the great crusade to end slavery. IMO Honest Abe was the beginning of the end for the United States as the Founding Fathers intended it to be. with the constitutional cornerstone of States Rights & the concept of the purely volunteer militia gone, america started sliding into exactly what our forefathers were against. The south was executing their right to stand up as Americans & fight for what they thought was right. They were trying to claim what they though was their birthright as the true Americans. I can feel the heat from all the flames coming my way... :lol: and dont forget this quote in the Emancipation Proclamation - "And I further declare and make known, that such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service. " The north was so short of soldiers by 1863, they had to add a recruitment pitch to the Proclamation. which, BTW, wasnt put into effect until 2 years after the war started.
godofthunder9010
Active member
fftopic: The underlying thing is that this is not a discussion about why the Civil War was declared, though I do think that Red Army approaches the subject from a perspective that is perhaps too simplistic: Black and White and race.
The greatest underlying reason for the Civil War was the as yet untested theory that a state could secede and declare itself to no longer be bound by the Constitution of the United States. Naturally, that as an ideology was far from sufficient for the North. It is interesting that the South seceded in apparent protest of the first ever avowed abolitionist winning the Presidency -- this fact destroys the claim that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War at all -- or its the most bizarre coincidence imaginable. Why hadn't the South seceded decades earlier? Why was it just President Lincoln that pushed them to the brink?
Much of what you claim is wrong because you have events and conclusions out of chronological order. Its probably a worthwhile discussion, but it needs its own topic since it doesn't really fit very well in this one.
I do apologize for that, but I am heavy into the War Between the States & couldnt stand to see a blunt black/white comparison between the north & the south... I have to answer your question & then a mod can delete my posts if they wish.... or even perhaps create a new thread if possible! one of the final straws was the conversion of cotton to textiles... the north was buying the cotton at low prices, turning it into various products in their factories & selling it back to the south at outrageous prices. the south got sick of this & made a deal with the french to convert their raw cotton into fininshed product at a much lower price. the north didnt like this at all & imposed huge taxs on the Souths cotton exports. to the point of The Confederate states making up 87% of the total tax revenue of the Federal treasury in 1860. This was a prime example of taxation without reperesentation, one of the major causes of the revolutionary war. The south didnt like this one bit & took up arms. :rambo:
they didnt secede just to see if it could be done...
now, to answer the original post.... we would have ceased to exist in the mid-1900`s. we wouldve been so war torn that we wouldnt have been able to contribute to WW1 or WW2, Germany wouldve defeated Britain, crossed the atlantic & invaded our East Coast & Japan wouldve invaded our West Coast. after they steamrolled us, Germany wouldve exterminated the Japs & we would all be speaking German & fighting Russians. or we wouldve nuked each other & turned our country into a un-inhabitable wasteland full of 2 headed ameri-mutants... :lol:[/quote]
I have to answer your question & then a mod can delete my posts if they wish.... or even perhaps create a new thread if possible! one of the final straws was the conversion of cotton to textiles... the north was buying the cotton at low prices, turning it into various products in their factories & selling it back to the south at outrageous prices. the south got sick of this & made a deal with the french to convert their raw cotton into fininshed product at a much lower price. the north didnt like this at all & imposed huge taxs on the Souths cotton exports. to the point of The Confederate states making up 87% of the total tax revenue of the Federal treasury in 1860. This was a prime example of taxation without reperesentation, one of the major causes of the revolutionary war. The south didnt like this one bit & took up arms. :rambo: they didnt secede just to see if it could be done...
now, to answer the original post.... we would have ceased to exist in the mid-1900`s. we wouldve been so war torn that we wouldnt have been able to contribute to WW1 or WW2, Germany wouldve defeated Britain, crossed the atlantic & invaded our East Coast & Japan wouldve invaded our West Coast. after they steamrolled us, Germany wouldve exterminated the Japs & we would all be speaking German & fighting Russians. or we wouldve nuked each other & turned our country into a un-inhabitable wasteland full of 2 headed ameri-mutants... :lol:[/quote]
airmanpatroler
Active member
Read Harry Turtledove's HOW FEW REMAIN
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Well, there would be the CSA and the USA. The slavery thing... I think abolition would have eventually come around to the South.
Who knows... maybe after a while the US and CS would actually start to get along with one another.
Who knows... maybe after a while the US and CS would actually start to get along with one another.
Charge 7
Master Gunner
Actually we now know from historical record (I'll try to find where I read it) that the South already had come to the conclusion that slavery was economically unviable let alone morally wrong. They were trying to find a way out of it even as the war began. It is a common misconception, however, that the Civil War was fought because of slavery. It wasn't. It was fought over states rights. That being who was the supreme power in the land? The Federal government or the state within it's own borders. Slavery was the main issue that brought that to head yes, but it was not the central issue of the war. Read any books written by the combatants of both sides after the war and you'll see where the Southerners were talking about their rights and the Northerners speak of rebellion to the Federal government.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yup. It was a war to preserve the Union. Why the change in the moral cause of the war? Because the losses the Union sustained in this war was far too great to make "preservation of the Union" a justified reason. Something above politics was needed. Persuit of God's equality of man was the best option.
SwordFish_13
Active member
Hi
By godofthunder9010
My Observation : The American civil war wasn't so much about slavery as it was Economics (form South's point of View)
Supporting argument: The south's main source of revenue at the time was cotton, cheaply grown and yes, cheaply harvested by slaves..................... In their ruling the Abolishment was a Forsed economic depression on the South by the Union ................... Rather than go willingly into poverty, the south chose to fight instead.
Ok, you can use the argument to say that it was to abolish slavery - from the Union's point of view it was, and simply based on that argument, I'm quite glad the Union won............ Slavery in any form is an abhorration.
Now coming to How USA would have been like today ...............I think By now Slavery would have been abolished anyhow.......
Ummm Just Noticed you said North USA and South USA ..............emmmmm How is it Possible to have a North/South America and still United States..........it could have been DSA(divides States of America.........just Picking
I would Still like to Point my Economic Point...............i think it was more Economic...............South was more Agriculturlar based and slaves provided cheap labour ..................that was a important point than being Anti-Black ..............so with the growth of economy and industralisation maybe things could have changed :roll:
By now Like Most of Aferica Aparthied has been Abolished same would have happned to N America and Confidrate America and which acould have ment better relations between the Two..............and being on the Same Continent which is Seperated by water form the rest of the world they would have to have been natural Friends ...............than enemies ...............Maybe they Could have shared Very Good Relations by now
Peace
-=SF_13=-
By godofthunder9010
My Observation : The American civil war wasn't so much about slavery as it was Economics (form South's point of View)
Supporting argument: The south's main source of revenue at the time was cotton, cheaply grown and yes, cheaply harvested by slaves..................... In their ruling the Abolishment was a Forsed economic depression on the South by the Union ................... Rather than go willingly into poverty, the south chose to fight instead.
Ok, you can use the argument to say that it was to abolish slavery - from the Union's point of view it was, and simply based on that argument, I'm quite glad the Union won............ Slavery in any form is an abhorration.
Now coming to How USA would have been like today ...............I think By now Slavery would have been abolished anyhow.......
Ummm Just Noticed you said North USA and South USA ..............emmmmm How is it Possible to have a North/South America and still United States..........it could have been DSA(divides States of America.........just Picking
I would Still like to Point my Economic Point...............i think it was more Economic...............South was more Agriculturlar based and slaves provided cheap labour ..................that was a important point than being Anti-Black ..............so with the growth of economy and industralisation maybe things could have changed :roll:
By now Like Most of Aferica Aparthied has been Abolished same would have happned to N America and Confidrate America and which acould have ment better relations between the Two..............and being on the Same Continent which is Seperated by water form the rest of the world they would have to have been natural Friends ...............than enemies ...............Maybe they Could have shared Very Good Relations by now
Peace
-=SF_13=-
Topgunjn1
Active member
What if the Civil War had never end or if it was a stalemate? Well, i believe that the UK would plead for our help, and North Americas strong ties to the UK would draw the USA and CSA into a union to become allies againist the Central Powers. And that the rest of the war would have pretty much gone more or less the same way.
Peterminator
Active member
Oh comon you all act as if a war could have gone one from 1861 to modern times. There wouldnt be anybody left to fight
Damien435
Active member
Peterminator said:
Have you ever heard of the Hundred Years War? the Cold War? It could have just been raids and counter-raids or arms build ups with an occasional hot spot here or there. btw, there is only about 50 years between the Civil War and WWI, I assume that post was in response to what Topgujn1 said.
I also think that Europe, or at least France and England, would have supported the CSA just as a way to keep the nations of the North American Continent weaker, let them beat themselves up so they can't focus on Europe, that sort of thing. And let's be honest, there is no way that the South could have invaded and conquered the North, the North had two and a half times the population of the South and was vastly larger, the North however could concievably conquer the South and that meant a unified America once again, far stronger and truly able to focus on Europe now that we were no longer killing off each other.
And yes, I do also think that eventually slavery would have been outlawed in the South, especially with the advent of tractors, combines, and other heavy farm equipment which would mean that one person could do the work of dozens of slaves. The USA and CSA would probably try to carve up North America amongst themselves to try and gain an advantage over the other, USA takes Canada, CSA takes Maexico, USA aquires Alaska, etc.