GuyontheRight
Active member
I’ve decided that this forum needs to Branch out of its WW2 phase, or actually, I read what Mark said and It made sense. Anyway, I decided that this topic would be a good way to cover Military History from a variety of times and points of views. The issue here Is Great Battles, or more precisely, how Armies lost, from a political and military point of view.
When nominating a Battle, the poster should consider the following….
Battle Name:
When It Happened:
Armies involved, lead by whom?:
Historical Backdrop (Set the context of how the engagement came about from a variety of perspectives, may they be political, cultural, religious, etc…):
Outline the Battle Itself:
Outline the result of the Battle:
Examine the consequences:
Critique the loser, what went wrong, how could It have been avoided?:
List your sources
Since I began the topic, I will nominate the first Battle. Feel free to disagree/agree with my assessment and please add your own comments.
The Battle of Adrianople (Hadrianopolis)
378 AD
Roman Army (Emperor of the East Valens) vs. Combined Gothic Force (Chieftain Fritigern)
Backround
During the mid-late 4th century, the Hun’s arrival In Europe threatened the security of many of the ‘Barbarian” Germanic people. Both the Visigoths and Ostrogoths asked the Emperor Valens permission to settle In the Empire in 375. Valens, who was eyeing reconquest of present day Iraq from the Persians (his predecessor has lost 5 provinces to the Persians there) allowed Goths under Fritigern to settle In Thrace (The Balkans) on the condition that they help boaster his army. However the Goth people were subjugated under the Roman rule, and faced famine. The Goth’s rebelled In 377 with help from the German Alans, and by 378 Valens was forced to confront them. He lead an Army of unknown size (more then 40,000) into Thrace, and caught up with the combined force of the Goths near Adrionople (see picture)
The Battle
Sentries reported that the Goth Force numbered only around 10,000 men, and seeing his numerical advantage, felt inclined to move on the enemy force without waiting for Western Emperor Gratian’s Army to deploy (Gratian had his army fighting Barbarians near the Rhine at the time.) The reason for Valens attack are not clear to this day, but It is likely that he either felt he could not wait any longer, or that he did not want to be put into a position of sharing the glory with Gratian. Seeing the Gothic infantry exposed at it’s camp, Valens decides to move on Aug 9th, 378.
Valens attacks the camp that day, hoping to destroy It before the Goth’s can move their Calvary Into the field of Battle. According to the Historian Ammianus Marcellinus, the Roman Army was slowed up by Fritigern efforts to stall by sending diplomatic envoy’s. We are told that the day was extremely hot, and the Roman troops were somewhat lethargic, duo also to hunger, according to Marcellinus. Whatever the case for the delay, that afternoon the Gothic Heavy Cavalry arrives, driving the weakly protected flanks of the Roman Army, which were attempting to break the Gothic infantry line around the camp.
The Roman flanks, as stated, are protected by light cavalry, and cannot sustain the superior Gothic charge. They break under the massive force, and Valens, who leads his Heavy Infantry In the center, is encircled by the Gothic cavalry. It is at this point In history where the Legion becomes mastered by Heavy Cavalry, which would become the dominate and deciding factor In war for centuries to come. Encircled, the Legion fights to the death, along with it’s Emperor. Roman casualties are 40,000 men, the Gothic casualties will probably never be known.
Consequences
Theodosius would take the place of Valens soon after, and was able to negotiate a truce with the Goth’s, who would sack Rome several times In the coming years. The Roman Army would never fully recover, and depleted, was forced to withdraw from Britain and parts of Gaul, as they faced a even greater enemy, the Huns. Adrianople should not be considered the beginning of the decline the Empire, but rather the beginning of the Collapse. The Goth’s, who had slowly accepted Christianity, would soon become it’s protectors against the and forces, and did briefly allied with the Romans to stop Atilla at Chalons In 451 AD. Militarily speaking, the Legion was becoming outdated, and heavy cavalry become the newest great innovation of warfare.
What Went Wrong
So what went wrong for the Romans? A lot of things really. In retrospect, we can see them much clearer. First and most obvious, Valens should have waited for Gratian, for he must have none the Gothic cavalry was near by, and attacking as he did without knowledge of where a large enemy element is a definite no-no In war. Of course, he must have outnumbered the Gothic forces In the camp by at least 4:1, so attacking without Gratian can be understood. Still, he should of attempted to locate the cavalry before he made his decision. Once the cavalry arrived, their was little he could do. His own flanks were week, and he was bound to be encircled. This problem could have been solved by arranging his Infantry into squares as Wellington did at Waterloo, although even this could probably have been defeated by the ferocity of the Gothic attacks. To sum It all up, Valens should never have used the Goth’s and thus abused them as he did In 375. This defeat arose from the political gripes, and just ones they were, of the Goths, who had been arranged In concentration camps by the Romans, and were mistreated by the Provincial authorities (I wouldn’t blame Valens completely, because the Provinces were the ones dealing out the hard knock-life).
Sources
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/adrianople.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/378adrianople.html
http://www.fact-index.com/b/ba/battle_of_adrianople__378_.html
When nominating a Battle, the poster should consider the following….
Battle Name:
When It Happened:
Armies involved, lead by whom?:
Historical Backdrop (Set the context of how the engagement came about from a variety of perspectives, may they be political, cultural, religious, etc…):
Outline the Battle Itself:
Outline the result of the Battle:
Examine the consequences:
Critique the loser, what went wrong, how could It have been avoided?:
List your sources
Since I began the topic, I will nominate the first Battle. Feel free to disagree/agree with my assessment and please add your own comments.
The Battle of Adrianople (Hadrianopolis)
378 AD
Roman Army (Emperor of the East Valens) vs. Combined Gothic Force (Chieftain Fritigern)
Backround
During the mid-late 4th century, the Hun’s arrival In Europe threatened the security of many of the ‘Barbarian” Germanic people. Both the Visigoths and Ostrogoths asked the Emperor Valens permission to settle In the Empire in 375. Valens, who was eyeing reconquest of present day Iraq from the Persians (his predecessor has lost 5 provinces to the Persians there) allowed Goths under Fritigern to settle In Thrace (The Balkans) on the condition that they help boaster his army. However the Goth people were subjugated under the Roman rule, and faced famine. The Goth’s rebelled In 377 with help from the German Alans, and by 378 Valens was forced to confront them. He lead an Army of unknown size (more then 40,000) into Thrace, and caught up with the combined force of the Goths near Adrionople (see picture)
The Battle
Sentries reported that the Goth Force numbered only around 10,000 men, and seeing his numerical advantage, felt inclined to move on the enemy force without waiting for Western Emperor Gratian’s Army to deploy (Gratian had his army fighting Barbarians near the Rhine at the time.) The reason for Valens attack are not clear to this day, but It is likely that he either felt he could not wait any longer, or that he did not want to be put into a position of sharing the glory with Gratian. Seeing the Gothic infantry exposed at it’s camp, Valens decides to move on Aug 9th, 378.
Valens attacks the camp that day, hoping to destroy It before the Goth’s can move their Calvary Into the field of Battle. According to the Historian Ammianus Marcellinus, the Roman Army was slowed up by Fritigern efforts to stall by sending diplomatic envoy’s. We are told that the day was extremely hot, and the Roman troops were somewhat lethargic, duo also to hunger, according to Marcellinus. Whatever the case for the delay, that afternoon the Gothic Heavy Cavalry arrives, driving the weakly protected flanks of the Roman Army, which were attempting to break the Gothic infantry line around the camp.
The Roman flanks, as stated, are protected by light cavalry, and cannot sustain the superior Gothic charge. They break under the massive force, and Valens, who leads his Heavy Infantry In the center, is encircled by the Gothic cavalry. It is at this point In history where the Legion becomes mastered by Heavy Cavalry, which would become the dominate and deciding factor In war for centuries to come. Encircled, the Legion fights to the death, along with it’s Emperor. Roman casualties are 40,000 men, the Gothic casualties will probably never be known.
Consequences
Theodosius would take the place of Valens soon after, and was able to negotiate a truce with the Goth’s, who would sack Rome several times In the coming years. The Roman Army would never fully recover, and depleted, was forced to withdraw from Britain and parts of Gaul, as they faced a even greater enemy, the Huns. Adrianople should not be considered the beginning of the decline the Empire, but rather the beginning of the Collapse. The Goth’s, who had slowly accepted Christianity, would soon become it’s protectors against the and forces, and did briefly allied with the Romans to stop Atilla at Chalons In 451 AD. Militarily speaking, the Legion was becoming outdated, and heavy cavalry become the newest great innovation of warfare.
What Went Wrong
So what went wrong for the Romans? A lot of things really. In retrospect, we can see them much clearer. First and most obvious, Valens should have waited for Gratian, for he must have none the Gothic cavalry was near by, and attacking as he did without knowledge of where a large enemy element is a definite no-no In war. Of course, he must have outnumbered the Gothic forces In the camp by at least 4:1, so attacking without Gratian can be understood. Still, he should of attempted to locate the cavalry before he made his decision. Once the cavalry arrived, their was little he could do. His own flanks were week, and he was bound to be encircled. This problem could have been solved by arranging his Infantry into squares as Wellington did at Waterloo, although even this could probably have been defeated by the ferocity of the Gothic attacks. To sum It all up, Valens should never have used the Goth’s and thus abused them as he did In 375. This defeat arose from the political gripes, and just ones they were, of the Goths, who had been arranged In concentration camps by the Romans, and were mistreated by the Provincial authorities (I wouldn’t blame Valens completely, because the Provinces were the ones dealing out the hard knock-life).
Sources
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/adrianople.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/378adrianople.html
http://www.fact-index.com/b/ba/battle_of_adrianople__378_.html
fftopic: how did you make those picture things of the battle, the red and blue thingies. excuse the terminology.
