perseus
Active member
The parts which they have already left to the Afghan forces to administer provide a good pointer:
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What happens when the US leaves Afghanistan?
this is what i feared would happen and will happen in the iraq and afghanistan struggle involving the U.S. at this time Obama thinks that it's in HIS power to pull out all troops from the conflicting countries, what he does not account for is that because of the direct influences of his administration and bush's that came before the U.S. the middle eastern government now is extremely reliant on U.S. intervention. if Obama is re-elected later this year and pulls out the troops in the middle east their governments will easily fall to the taliban leaving our enemy in charge of possible nuclear warheads and other WMD's that we may not be prepared to handle.
brinktk
Active member
I disagree. I just left Iraq in Dec. and even though the ISF may not be on par with the US military, I think they are good enough for the situation they are in. If you've ever dealt with Arabs, you'll know what I mean by that. A 100% Coalition solution is far worse than a 50% Arab solution...
As far as Afghanistan is concerned, we are basically p!ssing in the wind. As long as the Afghan government continues to have unmolested corruption at all levels, and as long as the Pakistani ISI and military is complicit in allowing VEN groups to operate from their country we can effectively accomplish nothing. Trust me, if the terrorists get their hands on a WMD/Nuke we will find out. A lot of red flags are raised when something of these sorts goes missing. Not to mention a delivery system which would be almost impossible to either smuggle or obtain for them.
The US is not prepared to what is necessary to win, because to do so would mean essentially invading the border region of Pakistan, flooding the country with AT LEAST 250,000 more coalition troops, and pissing off the entire Muslem world even more than they are already. THEY HAVE TO FIX THIS, the Afghans, Arabs, Persians, etc. etc...we cannot and should not do it for them. I am convinced there will come a time when the people get tired of the BS and start throwing these idiots out. This will take time...and patience...something western countries tend to be quite weak at.
I think Iraq is much closer to achieving some sort of stability than Afghanistan. We did what we could...now it's up to them. The training wheels are off and they are riding it solo so far...I can only hope this continues.
i would agree with you on a lot of what you are saying, however do you really expect Iraq to not fall off the wagon once or twice more, i only hope that when this happens the U.S. will give them the space to learn and try and recover before offering them a crutch like they did in the past.
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
Agreed, on that first bit however, fingers crossed that they don't throw out the old idiots and get a case of "this next guy has got it " Syndrome.
Also I am not surprised, American Policy makers don't have much patience in many things, when a Congressman or woman can get coffee in a matter of minutes, text home instantly and make a few phone calls all in about 10 minutes before voting on a matter such as the occupation of Afghanistan, then it shows through our culture, that we are tailored to be impatient.
brinktk
Active member
There is still a lot on the plate for Iraq to get through before they can focus on moving forward.
There is still quite a large rift between the Sunni's and the Shi'a. The Kurds don't really have any interest in the country outside of the Kurdish autonomous region. Iran has a lot of influence through their agents within the Shi'a population. VEN groups are still present and conducting acts of terror within their borders. To name a few...
I DO expect the Iraqi's to go through more difficult times. I know, and more importantly, they know difficult times are ahead of them. BUT, they do have a taste of modern society. Our culture has definitely rubbed off on the population under 30 years of age which represents over 60% of the population. They now have their cell phones and satellite TV and Xbox's. Much of the younger generation loves hip hop and many of them desire more freedom than has been traditionally allowed under Islamic law. This is the group that will bring change. This is the group that is protesting their corrupt and ineffective government. These are the ones that are seeking more education and a liberalization of the tribal and Islamic customs that have traditionally been so strong in this society. They needed those things to survive under Saddam...now I think they are realizing there is a bigger world out there that they are a part of and I am hoping that they join it.
fingers crossed...
There is still quite a large rift between the Sunni's and the Shi'a. The Kurds don't really have any interest in the country outside of the Kurdish autonomous region. Iran has a lot of influence through their agents within the Shi'a population. VEN groups are still present and conducting acts of terror within their borders. To name a few...
I DO expect the Iraqi's to go through more difficult times. I know, and more importantly, they know difficult times are ahead of them. BUT, they do have a taste of modern society. Our culture has definitely rubbed off on the population under 30 years of age which represents over 60% of the population. They now have their cell phones and satellite TV and Xbox's. Much of the younger generation loves hip hop and many of them desire more freedom than has been traditionally allowed under Islamic law. This is the group that will bring change. This is the group that is protesting their corrupt and ineffective government. These are the ones that are seeking more education and a liberalization of the tribal and Islamic customs that have traditionally been so strong in this society. They needed those things to survive under Saddam...now I think they are realizing there is a bigger world out there that they are a part of and I am hoping that they join it.
fingers crossed...
your statements about desiring more freedom is an interesting perspective on this issue, i never thought of it that way before but it does make sense, and it does add a new aspect to the Iraqi conflict.
Fellows let us not get caught in maybes,Iraq had WMD, remember? The only way to fight the afghanis is the fortified villages,free fire zones and no local traffic on the roads between dusk and dawn.Or all villages brought down to the forts, protected, but no movement out of them after dark.Exactly like the poms used to defeat the C.Ts in malaya and what we should have done in Vietnam
I go in and out of optimism / pessimissim on Afghanistan. It's like three steps forward, and then two steps back (when our lads get murdered by the Afghan comrades who they've just trained and supported).
We've lasted longer and achieved more than the Russians did in the 80's, but at what cost?!
I think long term, the major cities (if you can call them that) will be secured, not pro-West but not fanatically anti-West either), but the out-posts will always be or will return to Taliban control with Al Qeda as welcomed guests should they want some turf to train and live on in Afghanistan.
I think then, that we need to pull ground troops out and just do specific targeting with drones or Air Forces or long range targeting from missiles.
The sooner our govts can be convinced that Islam wherever it is, is our enemy the better. There is WW3 on its way between the West and Islam, we had better be ready and no holding back, they wont. They are determined to destroy us and our way of life,when the U.S. did not do retalitory raids on Tehran after they took your embassy, that was when in their minds you are easy prey.The U.S. is reluctant to finish anything and it is going to bite all of us on the behind.In a big way.
You can't win that war with military power. Their madrassas keep spitting out brainwashed suicide bombers and fanatic warriors as long as they excist. The government must prohibit such religious schools. Education is the best weapon to fight religious fanatics. Once people start to think on their own they'll see what a madness the Taliban (and any other religious fanatic gang) really is.
Clinkerbuilt
Active member
The psychology of conflict here is all wrong -- there is no clearcut objective, and no real plan to either "win", nor to accomplish anything. Until that gets fixed, discussing any kind of operational protocols is rather a moot point.
LET US RETIRE
Hello, I for one say get out now,if we are not going to fight these wars the roman way[ check on Gaul 50 BC] then get our soldiers out now.I am going to be realistic and the faint at heart may not like it. The more Islam fights itself the less we will have to face and my fellow christians and westerners to Islam we are all the enemy and WAR is coming. We have bent over backwards in our respective countries to accommodate the Muslims and what have they done to show appreciation? Tell us they are going to take over and in Englands case that is not far away. I am 68 on the way out and maybe will not see whats coming.My children and theirs will be here. No compromises anymore?
Hello, I for one say get out now,if we are not going to fight these wars the roman way[ check on Gaul 50 BC] then get our soldiers out now.I am going to be realistic and the faint at heart may not like it. The more Islam fights itself the less we will have to face and my fellow christians and westerners to Islam we are all the enemy and WAR is coming. We have bent over backwards in our respective countries to accommodate the Muslims and what have they done to show appreciation? Tell us they are going to take over and in Englands case that is not far away. I am 68 on the way out and maybe will not see whats coming.My children and theirs will be here. No compromises anymore?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
asma 18, what planet are you from?
just because they don't like us does not mean they are for Al Qaeda and the like either. The issues we face today are about as far away from black and white as you can get.
Our biggest enemy is our own stupidity and ignorance.
just because they don't like us does not mean they are for Al Qaeda and the like either. The issues we face today are about as far away from black and white as you can get.
Our biggest enemy is our own stupidity and ignorance.
After they killed Bin Laden they should have said "Mission Accomplished" and left with a warning "We can come back any time WE want".
Most (if not all) Islamic fanatic fighters are no threat to the west. They are just fanatic muslims who want to kill foreign boots on muslim ground. Leave it up to the Afghans to defend their land. I say land, not country, because Afghanistan is only a country on a map. In reality it's a bunch of tribes, and the ones living in Kaboel keep the money.
Most (if not all) Islamic fanatic fighters are no threat to the west. They are just fanatic muslims who want to kill foreign boots on muslim ground. Leave it up to the Afghans to defend their land. I say land, not country, because Afghanistan is only a country on a map. In reality it's a bunch of tribes, and the ones living in Kaboel keep the money.
lvcabbie
Active member
Iraqi Business News
I routinely follow this news thread @ http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/
IMHO, as long as there's money to be made from a variety of sources other than the opium poppy, Iraq has a chance of keeping out of the Islamic quagmire of Afghanistan.
As far as I'm concerned, let's get the h**l out of there NOW!
I routinely follow this news thread @ http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/
IMHO, as long as there's money to be made from a variety of sources other than the opium poppy, Iraq has a chance of keeping out of the Islamic quagmire of Afghanistan.
As far as I'm concerned, let's get the h**l out of there NOW!
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
brinktk
Active member
I routinely follow this news thread @ http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/
IMHO, as long as there's money to be made from a variety of sources other than the opium poppy, Iraq has a chance of keeping out of the Islamic quagmire of Afghanistan.
As far as I'm concerned, let's get the h**l out of there NOW!
I'm glad you brought that up and I completely agree.
If there is one thing that can be done in Iraq, it's make money. If they can get a handle on the security issue then companies will invest in rebuilding the infrastructure of this country. Everything from power stations, to roads, to newer more modern buildings, to, of course, oil. The Iraqi's will work, believe me. They are constantly looking for work, and if companies will invest in the country they will have an eager work force that just wants to provide for their family. This is key to marginalizing the extremists...instead of taking phone cards as payment to emplace an IED, an average Iraqi will be much less inclined to involve him/herself in these acts if they have a steady job and paycheck.
This is something I would constantly talk with my Iraqi Army/ police colleagues is that if they gain security, the rest will follow. They are a fairly secular society by Islamic standards and I really think that this Wahhabbi/ Hanbali variant of Islam that many of the insurgents are preaching is less than appealing to the majority of the the population.
It will not help much by prohibiting madrassas, the superiority of their religion is ingrained in quran according to it every muslim has the duty to convert the kafirs(non believers) by hook or by crook.If education was the catalyst then OBL and gang wouldn't have happen.
42RM
Banned
Afghanistan is widely considered ungovernable. But it was peaceful and thriving during the reign of King Zahir Shah (1933-1973). And while never held under the sway of a strong central government, the culture has developed well-established codes of conduct. Shuras (councils) and Jirgas (meeting of elders) appointed through the consensus of the populace are formed to resolve conflicts.
Key to success in Afghanistan is understanding the Afghan mindset. That means understanding their culture and engaging the Afghans with respect to the system of governance that has worked for them in the past. A successful outcome in Afghanistan requires balancing tribal, religious and government structures.
The tribal structures or Pakhtun code of conduct is very strong among Pakhtun majority and plays a significant role in the population which comprise of more than 50 percent of Afghanistan. These codes of conduct are an inherited way of life, especially for the Pakhtuns in rural areas on both sides of the Durand Line. Frankly, it is difficult for Westerners to grasp.
Key to success in Afghanistan is understanding the Afghan mindset. That means understanding their culture and engaging the Afghans with respect to the system of governance that has worked for them in the past. A successful outcome in Afghanistan requires balancing tribal, religious and government structures.
The tribal structures or Pakhtun code of conduct is very strong among Pakhtun majority and plays a significant role in the population which comprise of more than 50 percent of Afghanistan. These codes of conduct are an inherited way of life, especially for the Pakhtuns in rural areas on both sides of the Durand Line. Frankly, it is difficult for Westerners to grasp.