Western Allies v German Wehrmacht 1944 - Page 2




View Poll Results :Western Allies v German Wehrmacht 1944 - who wins?
Western Allies push Germany back to Berlin 10 55.56%
German Wehrmacht pushes the Western Allies into the sea 6 33.33%
Stalemate, with neither side gaining the upper hand 2 11.11%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

 
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June 12th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
I tend to agree with PershingOfLSU on this even with the bulk of the German army in the east released to assist in the west it simply could not have operated or deployed effectively without air superiority.

Regardless of the fate of the 6th army at Stalingrad the Germans would have continued to suffer casualties to its units throughout 1943-44 in Russia and I have no doubt that any attempt to move large volumes of troops to the west would have been difficult given the state of the western european transport systems and the damage the Russians would have done internally before giving up, this combined with allied air superiority almost from Romainia back to Britain troop redeployment would have been a nightmare.

I think the best the Germans could hope for was to have delayed the allied advance through Europe long enough to reorganise and then stop them I dont think once the allies were established in France they could have driven them out.
June 13th, 2005  
Darcia
 
if the war continued however Germany(Hitler) could have gone ahead with his Nuclear weapon also. The Difference between Hitler and Roosevelt(and Truman I know) having the weapon is Hitler would use it more than twice.
June 13th, 2005  
Arclight
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcia
if the war continued however Germany(Hitler) could have gone ahead with his Nuclear weapon also. The Difference between Hitler and Roosevelt(and Truman I know) having the weapon is Hitler would use it more than twice.
I was under the impression that the Allies had taken care of their heavy water production facilities. And why would the nuclear program have gone any differently if Russia fell?
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June 13th, 2005  
PershingOfLSU
 
The allies would have had nuclear weapons long before Germany. Germany relied entirely on heavy water from Norway for its nuclear weapons program. The plant was attacked and reduced by Norwegian insurgents and Germany's heavy water stocks were destroyed by an allied air raide on the ship transporting them. By 1944 Germany had no chance of producing a nuclear weapon before the allies, nor did Germany have a reliable means of delivering it.
June 13th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PershingOfLSU
By 1944 Germany had no chance of producing a nuclear weapon before the allies, nor did Germany have a reliable means of delivering it.
Maybe they couldnt deliver it to the US but they certainly could have hit anywhere in Europe via the Luftwaffe's jet aircraft and I am reasonably confident that had Germany had the bomb then a V2 (V3 in the case of the USA) would have been adapted to deliver it.
June 13th, 2005  
PershingOfLSU
 
What you're forgetting is that the first atomic bombs were incredibly heavy. Little boy weighed 9,000 pounds. Germany did not have a strategic bomber force. The Ju-188 could carry 4,400 pounds, the H-111 could cary 2,200 pounds. A V2 could only carry one ton, and the V3 is just a cross channel weapon. Hypothetically the Luftwaffe could have used a strategic bomber prototype to deliver an atomic weapon, not that one existed. Even the HE-177 couldn't have carried Little Boy. The only German plane that could take off with Little Boy was a transport, and it wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell. The Ju-287 would have been slower then propellor based interceptors and even if it could carry the weight, well you couldn't fit the bomb inside it. They certainly didn't have an assembled jet that could carry something as massive as an atomic bomb and out run allied interceptors.

If Germany had tried to deliver a nuclear weapon to any major allied city the bomber in question would have been shot down before even reaching England or Paris. Just about the only method they could have used to deliver an atomic weapon to a city is a U-Boat, and even that was risky for an important harbor.

Not to mention that the Allied nuclear program was literally years ahead of any Germany program.
June 13th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PershingOfLSU
What you're forgetting is that the first atomic bombs were incredibly heavy. Little boy weighed 9,000 pounds. Germany did not have a strategic bomber force. The Ju-188 could carry 4,400 pounds, the H-111 could cary 2,200 pounds. A V2 could only carry one ton, and the V3 is just a cross channel weapon. Hypothetically the Luftwaffe could have used a strategic bomber prototype to deliver an atomic weapon, not that one existed.
I am assuming you are talking about the Ju287 which had a capacity of 8900lb and the prototypes flew in mid 1944, given its performance stats it would have been a tough job for the Allies to bring down.

Ju 287 Forward Swept Wing Bomber
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 348 mph (560km/h)
Maximum Speed: 537 mph (865km/h)
Initial Climb Rate: 2,697 ft/min ( 822 m/min ) at sea level
Ceiling: 35,400 ft (10,800m)
Range: 985 miles (1585km) with maximum bombload

However on the whole I agree with you it would have been very difficult for Germany to drop a nuke given the total allied superiority.

PS I am not sure what I was thinking but I was under the impression that the V3 was to be the "trans-atlantic" missle.
June 13th, 2005  
PershingOfLSU
 
The V3 version of the Ju287 had the bombload of 8,900 pounds. However the Germans only got the V1 version air born. The V3 would never fly and the V2 was flown only after the war by the Soviets. The stats you posted were deliberately misleading in that you didn't make the distinction between different versions of the Ju287. Hence, the lower top speed is the speed the germans were able to obtain. The higher speed of 537 mph was never achieved during the war. Also you removed the section where it listed bombload with the number you gave with the clear marking of being for the V3 which never left the drawing board.

And even if the Germans did somehow manage to come up with a V3 Ju287, it would also face very serious weight balance issues trying to carry a bomb it wasn't designed for. Not to mention that a 1944 P-51 can both outclimb and out run it especially when it's carrying more then its maximum weight.
June 13th, 2005  
Darcia
 
The Germans also had a so called 'Piloted' V2 rocket and something similar to the B-2 Bomber. However the germans did have the capabiliteas to produce a Nuclear weapon, the main reason it never went through was because the Fuhrer thought himself to be invinsible and that nothing could ever stop him. therefore he called the program off and diverted the funding mostly to the airforce fighter division.
June 13th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PershingOfLSU
The V3 version of the Ju287 had the bombload of 8,900 pounds. However the Germans only got the V1 version air born. The V3 would never fly and the V2 was flown only after the war by the Soviets. The stats you posted were deliberately misleading in that you didn't make the distinction between different versions of the Ju287. Hence, the lower top speed is the speed the germans were able to obtain. The higher speed of 537 mph was never achieved during the war. Also you removed the section where it listed bombload with the number you gave with the clear marking of being for the V3 which never left the drawing board.

And even if the Germans did somehow manage to come up with a V3 Ju287, it would also face very serious weight balance issues trying to carry a bomb it wasn't designed for. Not to mention that a 1944 P-51 can both outclimb and out run it especially when it's carrying more then its maximum weight.
Actually I didnt cut any info out of what I posted but I only posted the performance stats (all 5 lines that were available and there was no version distinction made there either) to indicate that they did have a bomber close to production that would have been capable of delivering a "small boy" and would have been a handful for 1944 grade fighters, nothing else as this is somewhat off topic.
(sorry it wasnt a great web site but it had the general info I wanted to pass on)


Like I said though I dont really want to argue over this point as it seems we pretty much agree with each other over the question at hand.

Oh and by V3 I was meaning the rocket ie an upgraded V2 not an aircraft version.