West Wall or Siegfried Line

Ollie Garchy

Active member
West Wall or Siegfried Line

Hitler ordered the construction of western defensive fortifications and work began in 1938. The line itself ran from the Dutch border to Switzerland and was composed of elaborate bunker systems, tank traps, minefields, etc.

I want to know why Hitler poured vast sums of money, resources and manpower into what, from the Nazi perspective, represented an unusual undertaking. Remember that the armour plating for the bunkers could have gone into building more tanks, u-boats, etc. I also find the allocation of 500,000 men from the Todt Organization no minor thing.

The few historical sources that I have looked at, including a brief blurb in wikipedia, argue that the West Wall represented a propaganda effort to lull Britain and France into thinking that Germany was concerned with defense and not offense. Or, that Hitler wanted to keep Allied forces at bay while he crushed Poland.

But, in my opinion, these arguments fail to explain the dedication with which the Nazi organizations promoted and subsidized the project. Why not "pretend" to build a line and make the concrete and armour plating 2mm thick, with lots of dummy artillery emplacements and that sort of thing. That would constitute propaganda.

What do forum members think? I have no idea.
 
It seems to me that it was initially a serious undertaking but that there were numerous issues, plus the rapid advance in technology, which began to erode its usefulness. The Wehrmacht doctrine had no place for defensive structures like the Siegfried Line anyway, so I'm not sure why Hitler ordered its construction. Hitler did have some peculiar notions especially where the scale was on the large side. Note the huge railway guns he ordered built and the design for the 1500 tonne tank he insisted was pursued. Perhaps a defensive wall stretching the length of Germany appealed to his nature. As soon as the opening exchanges of Fall Gelb took place, the Siegfried Line was more or less consigned to obsolescence. Guderian noted in his memoirs that most of the guns and other useful emplacements were moved to the Atlantic Wall soon after the Battle of France had concluded. Like many things that no longer fitted their original brief the Siegfried Line/Westwall was used as a propaganda tool instead. Certainly when the Western Allies were advancing into Germany in late 1944 almost no-one 'in the know' thought the Westwall would be much of a hindrance to 'the enemy'.
 
There were many Nazi projects during the 1930s that used up massive state resources for reasons that might not be directly linked to offensive war. In an sense, there were two sorts. The creation of holiday resorts like Prora, or the work associated with Germania, certainly wasted money, cement and manpower. The other forms of wastage included the West Wall and coastal defences. All of this might have been a part of the Keynsian-style government projects aimed at spending their way out of economic depression. This spending might explain the poor state of German military preparations for offensive warfare, but it helped the economy.
 
OK guys, happy to be assistance and provide an answer for you.
No quandary here, just another offensive manoeuvre, I'm afraid.

Churchill provides the information you seek, speech to the house of Commons 1936.

'Herr hitler has torn up treaties and has garrisoned the Rhineland. His troops are there, and they are going to stay. All this means that the Nazi regime has gained a new prestige in Germany and in all neighbouring countries. But more than that. Germany is now fOrtifying the Rhine zone, or is about to fortify it. No doubt it willtake some time. We are told that in the first instance only field entrenchments will be erected, but those who know to what perfection the Germans can carry field entrenchments like the Hindenburg Line , with all the masses of concrete and the underground chambers there included - those who remember that will realise that field entrenchments differ only in degree from permanent fortifications, and work steadily up from thefirst cutting of the sods to their final and perfect form.

I do not doubt that the whole of the German frontier opposite to France is to be fortified as strongly and as speedily as possible. Three, four or six months will certainly see a barrier of enormous stength. What will be the diplomatic and strategic consequences of that? I am not dealing with the technical aspect, but with the diplomatic reactions. The creation of a line of forts opposite to the French frontier will enable the German troops to be economised on that line, and will enable the main forces to swing round through Belgium ans Holland. That for us is a danger of the most serious kind.....

Britain to have the Low Countries in the fortified grip of the strongest military power upon the Continent, and now, in these days, to have all the German aviation bases established there ...is repeating the lesson taught in four centuries of history. That danger will be brought definitely and sensibly nearer from the moment that this new line of German fortifications is completed. But then, look East. There the consequences of the Rhineland fortification may be more immediate. That is to us a less direct danger, but it is a more imminent danger. The moment those fortifications are completed, and in proportion as they are completed, the whole aspect of Middle Europe is changed. The Baltic States, Poland, and Czechoslovakia, with which must be associated Yugoslavia, Rumania, Austria and some other countries, are all affected very decisively the moment that this great work of construction has been completed.'


COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.
 
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Del Boy. Are you capable of answering any question without bringing Churchill into things mate?

Anyway, assuming you're not extracting the proverbial it's not surprising that Churchill would have that opinion on the Westwall in 1936, seeing as the Western Allies assumed that any future conflict with Germany would largely follow the line laid down in 1914. More specifically that Germany would again adopt the Schlieffen Plan. Indeed, Allied doctrine was based around this premise, hence the dispositions of the French Army/BEF when war did break out in 1940. The other great line of fortifications in the area was of course the Maginot Line, which further strengthened Allied expectations of the future direction and focal point of any German attack.

http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/blitz/fra40plans.htm
 
No quandary here, just another offensive manoeuvre, I'm afraid.
Are you head of the Churchill cult? Has Churchill been elevated to the level of Confucius? Churchill say...

The major problem with Churchill's view, like always, is that it is illogical. He is like a Christian. A Christian will pray for you when you are seriously ill. If you get better, the religious will believe that it was God's will and he healed you. If you die, the same people will say that it was God's will and he took you home. They cannot lose.

For Churchill, the German production of tanks was part of an offensive plan. He believed the same of the West Wall and German coastal fortifications. He, like the airpower radicals he supported, even believed that rising German coal and steel output was evidence of militant behaviour.

(1) "Appreciation of the Situation in the Events of War Against Germany in 1939", Approved by Committee of Imperial Defence and the Cabinet in May 1937:

The document argued that Germany would invade Belgium, France and Britain in 1939 and that Germany was actually a war economy in 1937. Here is a quote:

"In the past, it has been after the outbreak of war that a nation's industry had been adapted and expanded to war requirements, her man-power organized for war and the morale of her people artificially sustained. In Germany, as in other totalitarian States, these processes are now being perfected in time of peace. The dragooning of the populace and their submission to economic hardship to a degree previously only associated with wartime, or acceptable under war conditions, is being enforced during the peace period preceeding the actual campaign...The German people can be made to submit to this system under the stern discipline of their totalitarian regime, but in no way does democracy lend itself to the experiment". [Saward, Bomber Harris]

(2) Steel & Cars & Men: The air pundits pointed out, for example, that German steel production jumped from 5,771,000 in 1932 to 19,208,000 tons in 1937. This certainly looks strange. (They actually didn't because such annual statistics were not published in Germany. They simply argued for a large jump in production).

The problem is that this steel output merely represented a return to pre-depression output. German steel output in 1937 and 1925 was roughly the same. Moreover, the report fails to mention the massive movement forward in German consumer goods like telephones, radios, household appliances and cars. German automobile production, as an example, jumped from from 92,000 in 1933 to 269,000 in 1937. That was a lot of steel. You can actually see a coorelation between cars and steel:

They also don't tell us that the German military was around 700,000 strong in 1937, whereas the Soviets had 1,324,000, the French had 825,000, the even the British had 645,000.

The report listed above was a total fabrication build on nothing more than a series of crude lies. Most of these lies were heartily supported by Churchill. In fact, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the British air pundits fed Churchill exactly the information that he wanted to hear. And all they wanted was more funding in return.

(3) Churchill & the West Wall: No army, and especially the German Army, would build a wall for offensive combat. And here we see propaganda at work. For Churchill & co., the Maginot Line was defensive. The West Wall was not. In fact, they even believed that the German production of telephones represented evidence of a future war of conquest.

A Problem: I am having a hard time finding secondary sources covering the West Wall.

Sources:

stats from Udo Sautter, Deutsche Geschichte seit 1815: Daten, Fakten, Dokumente (volume one) (2004).

doc from Saward, Bomber Harris (1984).
 
No quandary here, just another offensive manoeuvre, I'm afraid.
Are you head of the Churchill cult? Has Churchill been elevated to the level of Confucius? Churchill say...

The major problem with Churchill's view, like always, is that it is illogical. He is like a Christian. A Christian will pray for you when you are seriously ill. If you get better, the religious will believe that it was God's will and he healed you. If you die, the same people will say that it was God's will and he took you home. They cannot lose.

OLLIE - you never cease to amaze me. You only tactic when presented with a fact you don't like is to administer what you consider to be an insult. As it happens, on your own, you are not even capable of doing that well, and you continually and completely expose yourself.

Obviously the question is ARE YOU THE HEAD OF THE HITLER CULT??
It certainly appears so.

In this case, you ask for information you have been unable to find, posing a question. When I politely respond with all the facts you need from the most knowlegable source of the time, you develop apoplexy.

Now, Churchill was a man of my time. He was the leader and saviour of my country - the greatest military leader ever known. To defeat humanity's darkest threat from such a position stands record to that. As they say in the tropics - the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Now Hitler, on the other hand, was jumped little **** with lunatic ambitions and a silly hair-cut and moustache.

You pays your money, professor, and you takes your choice.

I am happy with mine.

As for Christianity, let me put it this way.

If you sound like a Christian - you probably are a Christian.
If you sound like a Nazi - need I finish, professor?

This has been a quick note off the top of my head. I have to be off to Cheltenham now, my Veterans Badge arrives.

I will return of Tuesday to answer your post re the Seigfreid line.
 
[
Obviously the question is ARE YOU THE HEAD OF THE HITLER CULT??
It certainly appears so.
Del Boy, let's not drag this down to another Churchill v Hitler rant. It does appear that you like to quote Mr Churchill 'a lot'. Ollie's reply had merit and was on-topic. If you want to start a separate thread regarding the pros and cons of Winston Churchill (in fact there is a big thread already regarding him) then go and do so. It would be nice if this thread at least can be kept on-topic.
 
Delboy (aka Mr Bubbles' Monkey, aka Super Flamer)

Please leave Churchill out of this. Or was he involved in the creation of the West Wall? Quoting Churchill to explain why or how the Germans built the West Wall is bizarre.

Since we are off-topic again, could you please explain Churchill's view of German consumer goods manufacturing during the interwar period. What did Churchill think about all those cars, telephones, typewriters, and that sort of thing?

Flaming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)
 
Del Boy, let's not drag this down to another Churchill v Hitler rant. It does appear that you like to quote Mr Churchill 'a lot'. Ollie's reply had merit and was on-topic. If you want to start a separate thread regarding the pros and cons of Winston Churchill (in fact there is a big thread already regarding him) then go and do so. It would be nice if this thread at least can be kept on-topic.

You are a joke. I haven't ranted, and I am very much on topic - each time responding to misleading points of Ollie's. Get off that pedestal - your cause is not worthy.


WTF are you on about. you accuse Britain of being responsible for WW11. You accuse Churchill likewise, but when thefacts are presented from the main present and correct participant; facts recorded and irrefutable, you resort to insult and wish to dismiss such conveniently. I quote Churchill for recorded fact.

On the other hand, you Hitler apologists, apologists, mark you, for the greatest ever thrown over Europe, apologists for the filthiest, most disgusting regime ever seen run from the approach of this great man, defeated again by honesty and truth.

Idiots, you cannot have such a debate without the input of Churchill, but it sweeps away your Nazi garbage.
 
Delboy (aka Mr Bubbles' Monkey, aka Super Flamer)

Please leave Churchill out of this. Or was he involved in the creation of the West Wall? Quoting Churchill to explain why or how the Germans built the West Wall is bizarre.

Since we are off-topic again, could you please explain Churchill's view of German consumer goods manufacturing during the interwar period. What did Churchill think about all those cars, telephones, typewriters, and that sort of thing?

Flaming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29


To Ollie Garchy aka THE SNIDE NAZI TURD-POLISHER.

As you have descended so far as to expose yourself by resorting to weak insult, I have returned the compliment, even though it elevates you in fact.

I find you a rather comical buffoon, who posts a question asking information which you find difficult to obtain, and when I produce the factual answer for you, you scream and shout and try to dismiss what you don't like.

Your question was answered, obviously Churchill had the exact answer and history proved him correct, because history unfolded just as he warned. Very on-topic indeed.

So up yours, loser. If you want me to present Churchill's information regarding Hitler's war preparations, then i will happily oblige.

But you don't like facts, remember. You will scream and shout again. How like a Nazi!

Ask me more, side-winder.



COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.
 
You are a joke. I haven't ranted, and I am very much on topic - each time responding to misleading points of Ollie's. Get off that pedestal - your cause is not worthy.

Then reply to my observations about the Western Allies belief regarding German strategy, which Churchill's comments seemed to back up. Which would be on-topic.

WTF are you on about. you accuse Britain of being responsible for WW11. You accuse Churchill likewise, but when thefacts are presented from the main present and correct participant; facts recorded and irrefutable, you resort to insult and wish to dismiss such conveniently. I quote Churchill for recorded fact.

Off-topic.

On the other hand, you Hitler apologists, apologists, mark you, for the greatest ever thrown over Europe, apologists for the filthiest, most disgusting regime ever seen run from the approach of this great man, defeated again by honesty and truth.

Off-topic.

Idiots, you cannot have such a debate without the input of Churchill, but it sweeps away your Nazi garbage.

Off-topic.
 
You are a joke. I haven't ranted, and I am very much on topic - each time responding to misleading points of Ollie's. Get off that pedestal - your cause is not worthy.


WTF are you on about. you accuse Britain of being responsible for WW11. You accuse Churchill likewise, but when thefacts are presented from the main present and correct participant; facts recorded and irrefutable, you resort to insult and wish to dismiss such conveniently. I quote Churchill for recorded fact.

On the other hand, you Hitler apologists, apologists, mark you, for the greatest ever thrown over Europe, apologists for the filthiest, most disgusting regime ever seen run from the approach of this great man, defeated again by honesty and truth.

Idiots, you cannot have such a debate without the input of Churchill, but it sweeps away your Nazi garbage.

...how does this outburst have anything to do with the West Wall?
 
REGARDING THE LAST 2 POSTS. DOPPLEGANGER AND OLLIE SEEK FIRST TO LEAP OFF TOPIC IN RESPONSE TO MY SUBMISSION OF THE INFORMATION RE THE WALL WHICH OLLIE HAD REQUESTED, BY ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY AND CHURCHILL AS ALWAYS , AND ALSO HAD THE INCREDULOUS AUDACITY TO TO SCREAM "OFF-TOPIC "WHEN I RESPONDED TO THEIR LEAD.

LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC THEN. BACK TO MY SUBMISSION OF THE INFORMATION OLLIE REQUESTED ABOUT THE WALL. HE CLAIMS TO HAVE NO OTHER INFORMATION, SO SURELY CANNOT OBJECT TO MY SUBMISSION AS THE CORRECT ONE. STOP HURLING INSULTS AND STAY ON-TOPIC. STOP TAP-DANCING FOR ONCE AND STAY FACTUAL.

LET'S GO THEN. GO FOR IT BOYS. A LITTLE FACT AND TRUTH WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED BY ME. IF YOU HAVE A PROPER VIEWPOINT AND NOT AN APOLGIST WHINE, LET ME HAVE IT.


COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.
 
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