How does this thing end?

I am stumped on this aspect of it, no matter what Ukraine does it cannot force an end as Russia simply withdraws back over its borders, regroups and returns.
Putin can't call it off as there is no way he claim any sort of a win now, the eight months to date have been nothing short of a catastrophe for Russia, it's military and its economy.
Even if Russia somehow figure out how to fight a war it is still going to take years for them to get to the Polish border at the rate they seem to move.

So as said, how does this thing end, what is Putin's way out?

Originally Posted by MontyB

How does this thing end?

I am stumped on this aspect of it, no matter what Ukraine does it cannot force an end as Russia simply withdraws back over its borders, regroups and returns.
Putin can't call it off as there is no way he claim any sort of a win now, the eight months to date have been nothing short of a catastrophe for Russia, it's military and its economy.
Even if Russia somehow figure out how to fight a war it is still going to take years for them to get to the Polish border at the rate they seem to move.

So as said, how does this thing end, what is Putin's way out?

To end the madness, I think one way out is to find a way in which Putin can find a honorable exit. However, Putin will never be trusted again so Russia will be pretty isolated.

I think the end of it all is within Russia and the Russians. It will end when they had enough of casualties and their economy drained.

Would the war with Ukraine collapse if Putin is taken out/shot/removed or could an even nastier bugger take his place?

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

Would the war with Ukraine collapse if Putin is taken out/shot/removed or could an even nastier bugger take his place?

It depends on his entourage. It can go either other Russians get rid of him and end the war or it can go straight down the drain with another hardliner

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

It depends on his entourage. It can go either other Russians get rid of him and end the war or it can go straight down the drain with another hardliner

The general consensus is that Yevgeny Prigozhin head of the Wagner Group will replace him if it heads down the hardliner path.
I think it really depends on who "retires" Putin, if it is his inner circle then there is a greater chance of it being a hardliner who replaces him, the best chance of a "moderate" taking over would be if the army put him out to pasture.

I think this would be possible if the army hierarchy felt that they were in danger of being purged.

The one thing that is becoming obvious is that the war is unlikely to end while Putin is in charge as there really isn't a way out for him unless the military sudden develop some competence.

They did eventually give up in Afghanistan...

Originally Posted by George

They did eventually give up in Afghanistan...

This Russia is a different beast to the Soviet Union, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan to prop up a pro-Russian government and once the cost became too high they pulled the pin and buggered off much like the US in Vietnam.

Putin's Russia is a kleprocracy, it isn't in Ukraine for any other reason than to benefit a few Russian elite, where the Soviet Union cared about it's people to the point that they didn't want to look bad Putin couldn't care less about the Russian people as long as he is racking in the cash.

Basically, Putin will send every last Russian to the front and not give a flying rats arse about them where as the Soviet Union sort of did care in a round about way.

When the reservists/conscripts begin to return in body bags or just vanish in Ukraine, their relatives will begin to be vocal about it, that can force the Russian government to find a way out

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

When the reservists/conscripts begin to return in body bags or just vanish in Ukraine, their relatives will begin to be vocal about it, that can force the Russian government to find a way out

The problem I see is, Russia's powers that be doesn't give a damn about public opinion, as in NAZI Germany, 'Speak out and you'll end up in a concentration camp.' Putin like Stalin or Hitler, doesn't give a damn about human life. Putin will gladly send every male or woman who can hold a rifle into the front line as long as he holds onto power. In my opinion for what its worth, Putin will hold onto power until he is forcibly removed or shot.

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

The problem I see is, Russia's powers that be doesn't give a damn about public opinion, as in NAZI Germany, 'Speak out and you'll end up in a concentration camp.' Putin like Stalin or Hitler, doesn't give a damn about human life. Putin will gladly send every male or woman who can hold a rifle into the front line as long as he holds onto power. In my opinion for what its worth, Putin will hold onto power until he is forcibly removed or shot.

I agree mostly, I see three options that may trigger his removal though.
1. Senior military commanders fearing a purge by Putin to keep the hardliners happy take matters into their own hands.
2. Hardliners fearing Putin is failing take matters in hand.
3. Oligarchs and wealthy seeing their kids coming back in body bags sort things out.

I think option 1 is the most likely, option 2 the least likely and option 3 as only likely once Russia runs out of peasants to send and has to mobilize fully.