Originally Posted by MontyB

Well here is something new...
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/putin-sur...treat-kherson/

I see two problems, (1) Putin is a megalomaniac who will refuse to admit defeat and (2) Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy previously insisted that he would not negotiate with Russia while Putin remained in power.

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

I see two problems, (1) Putin is a megalomaniac who will refuse to admit defeat and (2) Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy previously insisted that he would not negotiate with Russia while Putin remained in power.

I have to admit I do not see an end to this war that does not see either Ukraine collapsing totally (Which at this stage is unlikely) or foreign troops (European, NATO or American) being stationed in Ukraine as a deterrent to Russia.

With or without Putin, Russia cannot be trusted to honour any agreement.
What I do suspect is that it is dawning on Russians slowly what a balls up this invasion has been and what this invasion is going to do to the way their nation is perceived for decades to come much in the same way Germany can't escape Hitler and the Nazis almost a century after they ceased to exist Putin's Russia will have the same stigma.

I find this to be rather hard to say but I think Biden is handling this war "almost" perfectly, my only issue has been the apparent drip feeding of the more serious weapons Ukraine needs.

I also believe this is the right stance to have on ending the war..

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international-...to-end-the-war

The "new" Swedish foreign minister said the West should give Ukraine long range artillery munition to hit targets on Russian soil. He also said the West should provide Ukraine with modern MBTs. The West can give them the Abrams, the Challenger, the Leclerc, the Leopard and the K2 Black Panther to see which one is the best MBT.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

The "new" Swedish foreign minister said the West should give Ukraine long range artillery munition to hit targets on Russian soil. He also said the West should provide Ukraine with modern MBTs. The West can give them the Abrams, the Challenger, the Leclerc, the Leopard and the K2 Black Panther to see which one is the best MBT.

I agree, the Russians currently hide behind some strange notion that they can wage war in someone else's country and when the going gets tough scurry back over their borders where they can't be attacked to lick their wounds before starting again.
Maybe the Russian people would be less ambivalent to what is being done in their name if their power stations and infrastructure was being blown up around them in the middle of winter.

I think the tanks thing would be hard as it would take a lot of retraining but it should already be underway as should the retraining of Ukrainian pilots to fly western aircraft.

We should not be afraid of Putin's red lines.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I find this to be rather hard to say but I think Biden is handling this war "almost" perfectly, my only issue has been the apparent drip feeding of the more serious weapons Ukraine needs.

I also believe this is the right stance to have on ending the war..

Sometime ago I read that Biden was giving them enough to create a strong negotiating position, but not enough to "win", haven't heard if this has changed.

Originally Posted by George

Sometime ago I read that Biden was giving them enough to create a strong negotiating position, but not enough to "win", haven't heard if this has changed.

The thing is that Ukraine can't win, there is no way Ukraine can retake it's land and drive to Moscow forcing Russia to surrender.
At best it can retake most of it's land (I think Crimea is a bridge too far) and do enough damage to the Russians to force a stalemate but to do that they need to be able to hit training centres and missile launch sites in Russia and Belarus, they need to be able to disrupt logistics as deep into Russia as is possible and if necessary they need to be able to perform the same tit for tat strikes the Russians are on their infrastructure.

Originally Posted by George

Sometime ago I read that Biden was giving them enough to create a strong negotiating position, but not enough to "win", haven't heard if this has changed.

What I heard was the West was giving the Ukrainians enough to survive, but not more than that.

The way to end this conflict is to give the Ukrainians enough of systems so they can military defeat the Russians to force them to negotiations and to inflict so much harm to the Russian military capabilities so they cannot do anything like this for a very long time

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

What I heard was the West was giving the Ukrainians enough to survive, but not more than that.

The way to end this conflict is to give the Ukrainians enough of systems so they can military defeat the Russians to force them to negotiations and to inflict so much harm to the Russian military capabilities so they cannot do anything like this for a very long time

As I have said previously, I do not see an end to this that does not involve either NATO membership for Ukraine and the protection of article 5 or western troops stationed in Ukraine as a deterrent.
No matter how this round ends anything less and Russia will be back, they simply can no longer be trusted.

However, as long as this is Putin's stance there will be no peace anyway.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63832151

Originally Posted by MontyB

The thing is that Ukraine can't win, there is no way Ukraine can retake it's land and drive to Moscow forcing Russia to surrender.

Probably just getting them out of the Country would be considered a win, like in Korea.