Weapons To Israel.

mmarsh said:
The extremist mentality is vocal and gets too much media coverage but it still remains small.

What reality are you living in. Perhaps you missed that poll I showed here it is again.

Muslim Views of Jews

...a large-scale attitudinal survey conducted by The Pew Research Center in 2006, puts the cards on the table when it comes to Muslim views of Jews.

The study revealed endemic anti-Jewish sentiment in the Muslim world.

Percentage of Muslims with Unfavorable Views of Jews:
  • Jordan - 100 percent
  • Lebanon - 99 percent
  • Egypt - 98 percent
  • Morocco - 88 percent
  • Indonesia - 76 percent
  • Pakistan - 74 percent
  • Turkey - 60 percent
http://judaism.about.com/od/american...uslimviews.htm



That is precisely what they want you to think. Thats one of the reasons for terror attacks, to make you believe that they are more powerful than they really are. Remember the IRA, they thought they were the top dog in Northern Ireland until the people there got sick of the endless bloodshed and commanded them to negiociate with the British. Fundimentalist are powerless if they dont have public support. Which is why they hate to negociate. Negociation robs fundimentalists of their power, which is why the resort to violence in order to keep the hatred alive.

That happened with the IRA becuase of the vote in Ireland that no longer gave the IRA moral precidence to continue the conflict.

Unless you can give the Muslims the same thing, the conflict will continue, you still don't get it. For them Mohamed say to hate the Jews, unless all the Imams says this is no tlonger valid and Israel has the right to excist only then will the conflict end.


Not if all issues are worked out. The ordinary Palestineans are just as fed up of the violence as the Isrealis. I remind you that during the Arafat-Barack negiociations there was over a year and a half of calm.

This is precisely the point I'm saying that they will have peace for a short period when they get what they want. And later they will look for any excuse at all no matter how small to restart the conflict again.


That Anology doesnt work. Czechoslovakia was never part of Germany, not even the Sudatenland was. Hitler made a land grab pure and simple. Here the situation is reversed, the Isrealis grabbed land that didnt belong to them in 1967 from the Palestineans. The Palestineans want it back in order to form a new country. Will it end the conflict completely and immediatly? No. Not for at least a decade or two. But it would be a hell of a step in the right direction. Just at the misery the Isrealis have gotten for trying to keep it. If the Isrealis and Palestineans want peace they will have to sit down at the bargining table. Everybody knows this, even the terrorists.

It has everything to do with it, in that people who have destructive aims will not be satified until they have evrything.

Not only that the Palestinians weren't the ones reponsible for trying to annihilate Israel several times during their history.

It was all the other Muslims countries around the area who have done so and they are NOT Palestinians, and they did not own any of that land.SO the analogy makes perfect sense.

I told you before, this is not just a Palestinian issue, the destruction of Israel is so prevalent that all the countries in the area jump in to fuel the conflict and support the terrorist.
 
MM
I am sorry but - gladius is NOT the only person that believes that you support Hezbollah. You have NOT come right out and said that you do ... but ... every post you have made dealing with the problems between Israel and Hezbollah absolutely scream that you favor Hezbollah.

You may NOT have meant for them to do so ... but ... there is NO other way someone could view them. They are NOT balanced ... you place much blame on Israel without recognizing that Israel's attacks are always in response to terrorist attacks and then only after other means have failed.

The question of Israel's right to exist was somehow completely lost in your posts - Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas are in favor of wiping Israel from the face of the earth and the way you crafted your posts don't even recognize that Israel's bottom line reason for combat is that they are fighting for their very existence. What other Muslim countries think has NOTHING to do with Israel resorting to force. A safety barrier is the only hope that Israel has for the protection of the villages, towns and cities along their border.

SORRY.
 
Chief

Thats because people are once again equating Hezbollah with the Lebanese, as if Hezbollah is actually controlled by Beruit. We have been over this, they are not, if they did this situation would be over with by now. I have expressed my sympathy to the Lebanese, 40% of which are Christian. I expressed nothing to Hezbollah, Islamic Fundimentalists are not exactly my Idol organizations.

The reason I dont defend Isreal is because the Isrealis are wrong. Once again, the Isrealis have used the heavy handed solution to deal with a problem. When you have 724 dead Lebanese, most of which are civilians (good number of kids too) and 74 Isrealis (roughly half are military deaths) doesnt that sounds just abit lopsided for a claim self-defense. Thats 10 times as many Lebanese as Isrealis, sorry but the self-defense excuse doesnt wash anymore. The fact is this has nothing to do with self Defence, Hezbollah is absolutely no military threat to Isreal. There is is no way Hezbollah could actually destroy Isreal, this worst it could do is be a nuisence, like its doing with these Katushya attacks. The Katushya unless lauched in large salvos is not much of a threat. Nor is this about the 2 soldiers anymore, that was merely the spark to the fuse. This is about politics, about sending Syria and Iran a message. And thats understandable, but do so over the skies of Tehran and Damascus, not Lebanon. The greatest error the Isrealis make is their failure to realize that the Lebanese too are victims of Hezbollah, and this bombing is making enemies of people that could have been their allies.

http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L05688729

I know the arguement about warning civilians to flee, but that isnt completely true statement. How on earth do you expect to flee a combat zone with when there is a massive transport and fuel shortage and all the roads are all cut off. Not to mention the fact the Isreal is strafing the roads and bridges, and all this done AFTER the message to flee was given.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1706697.htm
 
Doesn't Hezbollah have quite a few seats on Lebanon's parliament/congress/council/senate/whatever they call it but you know what I mean?
 
To the above statement: That Anology doesnt work. Czechoslovakia was never part of Germany, not even the Sudatenland was. Hitler made a land grab pure and simple.
May I suggest the Member who first wrote this, reads the book "Topographia Bohemiae, Moravie et Silesia", written in the year 1650! It starts with the statement, "Bohemia is an Area in Germany!" Bohemia is now called the Czech Republic!
Looking at some of the support for Israel given above, these people must therefore also agree that Hitler was right in marching into Sudetenland. (That is certainly not my opinion,) but it would be logical.
 
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Englander2 said:
To the above statement: That Anology doesnt work. Czechoslovakia was never part of Germany, not even the Sudatenland was. Hitler made a land grab pure and simple.
May I suggest the Member who first wrote this, reads the book "Topographia Bohemiae, Moravie et Silesia", written in the year 1650! It starts with the statement, "Bohemia is an Area in Germany!" Bohemia is now called the Czech Republic!
Looking at some of the support for Israel given above, these people must therefore also agree that Hitler was right in marching into Sudetenland. (That is certainly not my opinion,) but it would be logical.

That was me.

Good point, but Bohemia, Silisia, and Morovia didnt cover all of Czechoslavakia. If you look on a modern map you'll see the 3 regions only covers half what was then Czechoslavakia. Hitler had no legal claim to the areas known as 'Slovakia' and 'Carpathia Rus' but he still grabbed it anyway. So therefore compared to the example of Palestine its only half right, not that I think the Isrealis would want to be using Adolf Hitler as an example for territoral claims...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia


WnxRogue

True, but the Military Wing runs independent of the Political Party. The Political Party is a small part of the Lebanese Government, the military wing gets it orders from Syria and Iran. Lebanon recognizes Hezbollah as a 'resistence movement' but not members of the Lebonese armed forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezboll...cal_activities
 
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Weapons for Israel.
Hello All,
Those who accuse me of ignoring history ( for example Chief Bones), are in this respect quite wrong. It is rather because the European countries - Not just Germany- have pushed their "Jewish Problem" on to the Arabs, that my interest in the history of Palestine has grown.
The question of Israel's right to exist, is always being raised on this thread, but completely ignored, is the fact that at the time the new state of Israel was founded, arrangements were made to protect the native population already living there. These agreements were never fulfilled, therefore it is questionable as to whether the State of Israel really legally exists.
The UN says yes, despite all these breaches of obligations. Most Arab countries were at least during 1948 of other opinion, and Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas are even today in favour of wiping Israel from the face of the earth. Therefore To say that Israel's bottom line reason for combat is that they are fighting for their very existence is quite true, but why do we forget the deal made with the powers which handed over this region, at the time Palestine was divided.
Two states had been agreed on, those who claim to be descendants of the Philistines are still, due to Israel's objections, waiting for theirs.
Currently it may be true, to say a safety barrier is the only hope that Israel has for the protection of the villages, towns and cities along their border, and this would be for all concerned better than war, but in this case, it should be placed on Israel's own territory, not on stolen land, which just leads to yet more trouble, as does the heavy handed Israeli government's attempts to deal with their neighbours. The current Israeli provocation's in Lebanon, seem to be nothing less than a deliberate endeavour to bring Syria and Iran into the war, which would once again force the USA to intervene.
My personal opinion is that Islam is a dangerous religion, but it is wrong to blame the Arabs alone for the violence . Both sides could have started to co-operate with each other years ago, if good will had been shown.
When I see that some write, the Jews were there 1200 years BC, then it would only be correct to point out, that is also true for the Philistines and many other peoples. Certainly years before this, the land was in Egyptian hands.
The half of Israel's kingdom, founded by Saul in about 1024 BC, was taken by Syria 300 years later. The rest by Babylon 586 BC. It was not until 164 BC, that the Jews took power again, just for 100 years. To claim the area was always lived in by Jews, is also only partly correct. In the year 1900 only about 600 Jews (Jishuw) lived in the region, that is less than the number who were living in the British town of Brighton at the time! Anybody placing a claim on this lovely part of the English coast?
We must try to differentiate between facts, opinions and propaganda, otherwise we shall get nowhere with these discussions.
To provide any of the sides involved in this conflict with weapons now, is to my mind a crime against humanity. Without support from the outside, they would have to talk to each other and live in peace.
As far as I can see, the only people who can gain out of such conflicts and seek to cause provocation, are those who have contracts for supplying weapons or for rebuilding countries after they have been destroyed.
 
Englander2 said:
Weapons for Israel.
In the year 1900 only about 600 Jews (Jishuw) lived in the region, that is less than the number who were living in the British town of Brighton at the time!
Would you mind to bother yourself with providing a source for your statement?
Thanks!

This source shows how difficult to find the correct data on this subject:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
 
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In answer to the borris116 question concerning my last post, is following to be said:
It is of no bother to give the source of information required. But although adequate for general discussions, the lack of details concerning day, month of the count, or whether only native, not visiting Jews are being related to, it is unlikely that this souce is suitable for educational or historical studies.
The statement, " In the year 1900 only about 600 Jews (Jishuw) lived in the region, that is less than the number who were living in the British town of Brighton at the time!" is based on a summary of events and names concerning the creation of the new state of Israel. The summary is part of a collection of documents privately obtained over a number of years, it has itself not been published, but is an important part of the collection which includes:
The "Palestine Mandate of the league of Nations" Written in English.
The "Mandate Period" written by Samik K. Fasoun and Christina Zacharia, also in English
(These authors just refer to a small native Jewish community).
The following articles from the German educational brochure "Geschichte lernen" No. 83 (2001)
"Ein Land-zwei Voelker" by Dietmar von Reeken. In German.
"Palaestina zu Beginn der zionistischen einwanderung" by Alexeander Flares. In German.
" Der Unabhangigkeitskrieg Israels und das Schicksal der Palaestinenser" by Mathias Pophanken
as well as " Zionismus" by Erik Pelry, also in German.

Further of interest, to those seeking more than run of the mill literature on these themes, is also the German book " Der zweite Polnische Madagaska Plan," but this will probably only be found in university libraries.
I hope this answer will help the collection of true data, which has been said, is difficult to find.
 
Englander2
I love it ... you toss around all sorts of garbage as far as I am concerned, and continue to deny (or) ignore the root cause of the present conflict. All of the "land" garbage means exactly nothing ... what is driving this conflict is Hezbollah's and Hamas's continuing terrorist attacks against men, women and children Inside Israel's borders. To top that off, these groups along with their masters (Iran and Syria), continue to publicly preach their doctrine of hate for the Jewish people. They continue to call for the annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people.

You can try to paint history any way you like and try to excuse Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism ... but ... in this case that history is just a collection of historical flotsam that adds nothing to the resolution of the conflict.

Until Hezbollah and Hamas renounce their stated goal of wiping Israel and call off their jihad against the Jewish people, Israel has no choice but to resort to military force. To do otherwise would invite even more attacks. Peace overtures evidently mean nothing to Hezbollah and Hamas ... Israel tried that approach and what did it solve ... just more and more attacks.
 
The fact that most human bomb targets have a high density of civilians looks pretty bad for a peaceful solution. When your Wife and kids go to the market, you don't want their next stop to be the morgue. I guess I would personally propose an action similar to the IDF if that happened to my family. Most soldiers will show more restraint when they are attacked than when their families are.
 
Thank you、Englander2
I read your valuable opinion.
I need more intellectual person as you.
I assume that Israel is illegal nation,what is the best way to solve this plobrem.
As Mr Ahmadinejad insists,
Israel should be wiped out and all jewish go to Deutchland and US,UK to build IsraelⅡ and IsraelⅢ and IsraelⅣ and Isr・・・・
I have no idea.
Do you have any idea to stop this situation?
 
Topic: Weapons To Israel.
Hello Chief Bones and Sandy
Chief's remarks " garbage means exactly nothing" and that the "root cause of the present conflict is being ignored," may be his opinion and are probably meant honestly, but have little to do with the facts of the case. For example which of Israel's borders are being referred to, The legal ones of 1948, those claimed in 1967, or are the additional occupied territories to be included?
While I agree the call for the annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people is extreme, the study of history is needed to find out what has gone wrong. Hezbollah and Hamas were not grounded for the fun of it, anymore than were Hagana and Lechi. I repeat once more, because it has not sunk in by some, terrorists are not born as such, but are the result of false policies!
To say, "in this case that history is just a collection of historical flotsam that adds nothing to the resolution of the conflict." Is to admit one is not ready to learn from mistakes made in the past. There can be little doubt however, that some of the same mistakes were made during the creation of Israel in 1948 as had been after WW1 by the creation of Czechoslovakia and nobody learnt from that chaos. In both cases the native populations of areas within the new states were not given enough consideration.
By resorting to military force Israel just makes the injustices worse. To say they had no other choice, is not true, the offer of talks and an exchange of prisoners were deliberately spurned. Nobody would expect Israel to crawl on its knees, but a fair and open discussion with its neighbours could bring a stop to the atrocities on both sides. This has worked with Egypt and Jordan for some years, to the advantage of all three countries. Unfortunately, a few more attacks on innocent women and children by Israel may even end this fragile peace. The country has lost many friends due to its handling of this unnecessary crisis.
On the other hand, to wipe Israel off the map, as Sandy proposes is also no solution. We are not just dealing with nations, but with human beings! It is as wrong to kill or deport thousands of innocent people just because they belong to a certain ethnic group or religion, as it would be to shoot a person who gets in the way when you are hunting a lion.
To the question as to any ideas to stop this situation, of course I have, but they have little hope of success as long as such countries as the USA and Iran are ready to use war to increase their political influence.
By the way, Garbage is a useful material to produce natural gas, that would help to explain some of Chief's, arguments.
 
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Englander2 said:
In answer to the borris116 question concerning my last post, is following to be said:
It is of no bother to give the source of information required. But although adequate for general discussions, the lack of details concerning day, month of the count, or whether only native, not visiting Jews are being related to, it is unlikely that this souce is suitable for educational or historical studies.
The statement, " In the year 1900 only about 600 Jews (Jishuw) lived in the region, that is less than the number who were living in the British town of Brighton at the time!" is based on a summary of events and names concerning the creation of the new state of Israel. The summary is part of a collection of documents privately obtained over a number of years, it has itself not been published, but is an important part of the collection which includes:
The "Palestine Mandate of the league of Nations" Written in English.
The "Mandate Period" written by Samik K. Fasoun and Christina Zacharia, also in English
(These authors just refer to a small native Jewish community).
The following articles from the German educational brochure "Geschichte lernen" No. 83 (2001)
"Ein Land-zwei Voelker" by Dietmar von Reeken. In German.
"Palaestina zu Beginn der zionistischen einwanderung" by Alexeander Flares. In German.
" Der Unabhangigkeitskrieg Israels und das Schicksal der Palaestinenser" by Mathias Pophanken
as well as " Zionismus" by Erik Pelry, also in German.

Why I have an idea that your sources are anti-Semitic through and through?

This kind of literature that makes outrageous claims is good only for people who WANTS to believe in it.
 
Only after the fighting stops ...

England2
We are discussing the present conflict in the Middle East ... your comments would mean something if we were talking about resolving the disputes in a peaceful sit-down where all parties recognized each others right to exist.

This is NOT the situation we face, we are discussing a situation where multiple terrorist groups are ONLY interested in wiping out Israel and are NOT interested in any kind of peaceful coexistence with Israel. Israel has been attacked and can see no other solution to the constant attacks on their civilian population other than a military solution. We are seeing that other Arab countries are pulling the strings to cause the Hezbollah and Hamas groups to attack Israel and their civilians with terrorist tactics.

Your historical "understanding" has a much possibility of resolving this conflict as a fart in a hurricane. My "garbage means exactly nothing" & "the root cause of the present conflict is being ignored" quotes are right on point for this particular thread.

Your opinion, however, just doesn't fit this thread topic ... it WOULD fit into a discussion of what needs to be done only after the fighting stops and impartial troops take up the patrol of a buffer zone. Until that happens, any discussion of the "facts" you quoted is just so much hot air. It will NOT add anything to a possible ceasefire and hoped for cessation of hostilities.
 
PART ONE: MORE WEAPONS?

Official IDF Statement Concerning Troop Strength: "IDF's strength is far greater than the competing strength of the two problems on the two fronts. Hezbollah will probably surprise us in the coming days, only we will surprise them much more."

What does this Mean?: It means exactly what is stated. The power of the Israeli military is "far greater" than that of Hamas and Hezbollah. We might as well add the states bordering Israel. I realize that some forum members will treat the latter statement as an excuse to compare the IDF with, say, Iran on a man for man basis. But the more astute members will understand that such an exercise is just a waste of time.

Does Israel Need More Weapons?: No. The IDF is attacking "terrorist formations" that cannot be cut off from their supply bases or encircled. The IDF will have to pound Hezbollah bunker by bunker. Israel already has the equipment required. They only need an international UN force to occupy S. Lebanon when the fighting stops. Israel has chosen the German army for this role. Olmert: "There is at the moment no nation that is behaving in a more friendly way toward Israel than Germany".

PART TWO: ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST?

This issue is not really even an issue. Israel does not exist because of archaeological digs, or the Bible, or Joseph and Jacob. Israel exists because the UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Israel's borders are legally recognized, guys.

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=54435.EN

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525804767&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
 
Englander2 said:
Topic: Weapons To Israel.
For example which of Israel's borders are being referred to, The legal ones of 1948, those claimed in 1967, or are the additional occupied territories to be included?

Englander2,
Could you explain by whose authority any country in the Middle East was established? Who authorized the borders of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria? Were their borders etched by a higher power at the beginning of time? Just wondering where one gets an official authorization and if it's legal.
 
Missileer said:
Englander2,
Could you explain by whose authority any country in the Middle East was established? Who authorized the borders of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria? Were their borders etched by a higher power at the beginning of time? Just wondering where one gets an official authorization and if it's legal.
Now now - Missileer don't confuse Englander by gasp 'facts'. (Sorry Englander - couldn't help myself).

This an observation that certain members will NOT want to get into a discussion over. The fact that borders have been fluid through history as a result of the exercise of force, will NOT be viewed with favor by certain factions, (Hezbollah, Hamas, Palestinians and some Lebanese).

OG said it all
Israel does not exist because of archaeological digs, or the Bible, or Joseph and Jacob. Israel exists because the UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Israel's borders are legally recognized, guys.
You can hem and haw, but the fact remains that Israel's borders are legally recognized by the UN (the paper tiger so many people swear by (or at).
 
Hello,
To boris116 question, "Why I have an idea that your sources are anti-Semitic through and through?" and the statement, "This kind of literature that makes outrageous claims is good only for people who WANTS to believe in it."
Most of the articles mentioned are/were used for High school education in Germany. If we accept the statement of "Chief Bones": - Israel has chosen the German army for this role. Olmert - and, "There is at the moment no nation that is behaving in a more friendly way toward Israel than Germany", it is obvious that boris116 has read none of the above, but allows himself to give a judgement on the same.

I certainly would also agree with the Chief's comment, "We are discussing the present conflict in the Middle East," but I had been asked (by boris116) to provide my Source of information, and if I had not done so, somebody would surely have raised the question as to the accuracy of my comments.

It is also quite clear that "We are seeing that other Arab countries are pulling the strings to cause the Hezbollah and Hamas groups to attack Israel and their civilians with terrorist tactics." However the same might be said for the help given to Israel by the USA. The answer to the question as to why this should be, can only be found by looking at the history of the region, so that the same mistakes are not made in the future. If we do not, " the root cause of the present conflict is being ignored!"
To say, "The power of the Israeli military is far greater" than that of Hamas and Hezbollah" is probably also true and Israel certainly does not need more weapons, unless of course, these are being supplied because another war is in the offing.
Discussions are in some ways similar to wars.To be successful, one must try to understand how the other side is thinking. To abuse the opponents, may be good for a short laugh, but it cannot in any way replace shrewd arguments. Or does anybody want to reduce this discussion to just saying yes or no?
There are various ways to discontinue conflicts, one is to destroy the opposition completely, (this is in the Middle-East practically impossible). Another, less bloody is to come to an agreement (why have both sides refused to do so, in this case?) The worst ,to my mind, (as in WW1), to keep going so long that both sides get tired of fighting and need a few years to recover before starting again. But that is history once more, and so I shall not delve deeper into this possibility out of respect for my learned friends!
 
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