Watchdog blasts China's 'irresponsible' arms trade - Page 7




 
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June 16th, 2006  
yingying
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordFish_13
Hi,



A new One For me ..... India Buys 75 % of all it's weapons From Russia Not America .......... America Has never Been a Wepon Supplier For India ...... Traditionally India Has Bought Weapons From Soviet Union , France And UK But Never From America ..... where Did you get that Info ?
Time for Boeing to make more money.

NOT never ,but ever.

When in 1962 clashes India accept weapons both from Russia and America.Very interesting indeed ,is not it?When in that cold war times India can make friends with both capilist world and communist world.Indians are good at diplomacy.Very excellent.

here the American weapons in Nepal:::http://zt.shvoong.com/humanities/5752-us-arms-nepal/
American weapons ready in India:::http://www.cncfan.com/cncfan_com_art...3600&cat_id=69
American weapons in Pakistan:::by 2007 The Pakistan air force will receive 77 F-16.
June 16th, 2006  
filmmaker
 
 
hey guys just read this article.
Quote:
Buyers line up for China's arms
By Tim Luard

China may have lost its reputation for making low-cost goods, but when it comes to weapons, there is no doubt which end of the market its sights are still set on.

A Chinese salesman with a customer at a defence exhibition in Beijing in April 2006
Amnesty says China's arms exports fuel conflicts
Some of the poorest and most unsavoury regimes on earth, which either cannot afford or are not allowed to buy sophisticated Western arms, are turning to the world's newest superpower to buy guns, leg-irons, anti-riot equipment and armoured vehicles.

Military specialists contacted by the BBC News website have confirmed the main findings of a report issued this week by Amnesty International, which said Chinese arms sales were fuelling conflicts and human rights abuses in countries such as Sudan and Burma.

China has been the Burmese military government's main supplier of weapons - including artillery, trucks, logistical support and communications equipment - ever since the 1990s, according to Tim Huxley, an Asia specialist at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

"Without Chinese arms supplies, the Burmese army would find it impossible to operate," he said.

China has also become a major, and perhaps the largest, supplier of weapons to Sudan, where its sales include fighter aircraft and helicopters, according to analysts.

The key question in Sudan, they say, is to what extent alleged war crimes in Darfur are dependent on these supplies.

Presidential guards in Juba, southern Sudan 6 August 2005
China is one of Sudan's major sources of weapons
China has used the threat of its Security Council veto to stall or dilute UN resolutions on Darfur, saying the situation in Sudan is an internal affair.

While the US maintains partial sanctions against Sudan, China has become the country's biggest trading partner, taking most of its oil exports.

Small scale

While there has been much debate on China's alleged transfer of nuclear or long-range missile technology to countries like Iran, North Korea and Pakistan, little attention has been paid to its routine export of conventional weapons and small arms.

Before it started introducing capitalist-style economic reforms in 1978, China gave arms as free military aid to governments and revolutionary groups seen as supporting its interests.


It's the country of choice when you want to buy cheap and simple weapons - like Kalashnikovs, rocket-propelled grenades and artillery shells
Paul Beaver,
defence analyst

As its new-found economic might has helped extend its reach and influence, arms sales have become an integral part of China's trade links in Asia, Africa and Latin America, according to Amnesty's report.

Some might say this is all part of being a successful capitalist country. China is already flooding the world with its goods of all kinds, so why not arms too?

Many also point out that Chinese arms exports are tiny compared with those of the United States. They are also smaller than those of Russia, France or Britain.

And the value of Chinese arms sales has in fact shrunk in the past 20 years from $2bn a year to about $1bn, mainly due to Russian competition and the poor performance of Chinese weapons in the Iran-Iraq and Gulf Wars in the 1980s and 90s.

'Cheap and simple'

Today, while Western nations tend to sell integrated weapons systems, China produces the kind of weapons they do not make any more, says Paul Beaver, a London-based defence analyst.

"It's the country of choice when you want to buy cheap and simple weapons - like Kalashnikovs, rocket-propelled grenades and artillery shells.

"China's export policy is that it will supply any country and any sovereign government. The problem is that some have arms embargoes on them," he said.

Nepalese soldiers arrest an activist at a pro-democracy rally on 21 January 2006
The Nepalese security forces have been accused of rights violations

China, like other countries, does have a policy on export controls, but this is usually whatever is in the interests of the government, said Beaver.

While Chinese handguns and security devices such as electric batons are sold in many parts of Africa, the Middle East and Asia on a purely commercial basis, China is also known to supply arms at "friendship prices".

It is especially interested in selling to countries with energy supplies. But there are often other strategic factors involved - as in Nepal and Burma, where China is competing for influence with India.

Derek Mitchell of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington says China has used arms sales not only to open new markets and extract natural resources, but also to help provide capital to its defence industry at a time when the military was being forced to give up its own commercial activities.

China's other main aim, he says, is "to demonstrate its credential as a friend of nations in the developing world in ways that can bear fruit in international institutions such as the UN, and that can be leveraged against US power globally".

Government-controlled

He shares Amnesty's view that China often ignores the impact its arms sales can have on the internal affairs of troubled states.

In Nepal, for example, a deal to supply nearly 25,000 Chinese rifles and 18,000 grenades came at a time when the security forces were involved in suppressing thousands of civilian demonstrators. Sometimes China has even provided assistance to both sides in a conflict, as with Eritrea and Ethiopia, added Mitchell.

He dismissed suggestions that the blame lies with Chinese arms companies acting independently.

"One must hold the government responsible because all arms merchants and weapons dealers in China are government-controlled," he said.

There are few multilateral controls on conventional weapons and China does not operate under the same restraints as most democratic countries, where arms deals tend to be much more transparent and subject to public scrutiny, say analysts.

China's official news agency carried a denial of Amnesty's charges. Chinese specialists contacted by the BBC for this article declined to comment. One simply said he wanted "no connection" with Amnesty International.

But China is keen to be viewed as a responsible world power. And while the US and other governments are concerned about its rising military spending, rights activists are hoping it will soon move to the higher, more strictly monitored end of the arms market - just as it is already doing in other areas, from clothing to computers.
chinese company will keep selling weapon to blood suckers in sundan without following any laws and regulations. next times, the warlard will send his jets and tanks to execute his opponents without worrying losing resouces of weapons, because UN can not impose sanction against them without chinese cooperations.
June 16th, 2006  
ASTRALdragon
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yingying
Obviously I was wrong,I thought filmkaker is as young as Rabs and ASTEALdragon.
So now you use our age as an excuse because we present strong argumentative points, in which you cannot counter? Describe anytime in which Rabs or I have shown a certain level of immaturity to be singled out. I'd say for a college student who is graduating in spring 2007 with a double major in criminal justice and microbiology, I carry myself fairly well in the debate forums (I participate in 3 other forums like this). So please, let's just stick to the arguments, counter, quote, and citations for now and leave immaturity and low blows at the door.
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June 16th, 2006  
Rabs
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swordfish13
A new One For me ..... India Buys 75 % of all it's weapons From Russia Not America .......... America Has never Been a Wepon Supplier For India ...... Traditionally India Has Bought Weapons From Soviet Union , France And UK But Never From America ..... where Did you get that Info ?
Hopefully that will change pretty soon, relations between our to countrys are getting kinda cuddely. Part of that is its nice to have a powerful ally sitting right next to a powerful enemy. My slogan to India

Buy American!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060616/...apple_computer
June 17th, 2006  
bulldogg
 
 
Ying, Swordfish asked about your source for INDIA not PAKISTAN.
June 17th, 2006  
filmmaker
 
 
Quote:
Boy,I think you have missed India in the list of American weapon costumers.America still sell weapons to India to promote the war between India and Pakistan.
American intention of selling weapons to both of them is not to promote the war between india and pakistan. just like Swordfish said 75% of indian weapon imports are from Russia, their business partnership has last amost several decades. it is absolutely not necessary for india to buy weapons from America if the war breaks out between them, India doesn't need American weapons which are very expensive to go to war with pakistan.
I think everybody in here knows the main weapon resource of pakistan military is Chinese government. actually, the war between india and pakistan is a fight between russian weapon systems and chinese weapon system. this is just my personal opinion about this issue, if any of members in this thread think I am wrong, please post some information to correct my stubborn mind.
in fact, both of india and pakistan don't think America as a very reliable weapon resouce because US put arms ban on both of them after india and pakistan detonated their nuclear bombs. because of arms ban pakistan could not get their F-16s from America. so in lots of pakistanian mind the refusal of selling F-16 is a biggest degradation of their air force who would fight with indian airforce. because India could get everything they need from Rsussia, india didn't really care if Amrica put arms ban on them or not. it is a politcal reason that right now America start to sell weapons to them again. for indian side: America want to build much closer relationship with India by selling some advanced weapons, because America need india's helps to contain China. for pakistan side: America need pakistan's efforts to kill terrorists ,so American have to give F-16 to pakistan. I think the main reason of selling weapon to India and pakistan is not to promote or escalate the war between them.
Quote:
Hopefully that will change pretty soon, relations between our to countrys are getting kinda cuddely. Part of that is its nice to have a powerful ally sitting right next to a powerful enemy. My slogan to India
But business is business. American weapons are too advanced and expensive for india to acquire a big amount of them.Russia and EU will still be biggest weapon suppliers for india, even America is willing to sell more stuffs, because as a buyer india will take a very serious consideration of their options in terms of the prices and maintenance costs.
Indian foreign policy has a very strong concept of being independent. India will basically listen to nobody. India will not be used by US to against China,no matter what US try to offer india, because national interest is the priority.
June 17th, 2006  
yingying
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTRALdragon
So now you use our age as an excuse because we present strong argumentative points, in which you cannot counter? Describe anytime in which Rabs or I have shown a certain level of immaturity to be singled out. I'd say for a college student who is graduating in spring 2007 with a double major in criminal justice and microbiology, I carry myself fairly well in the debate forums (I participate in 3 other forums like this). So please, let's just stick to the arguments, counter, quote, and citations for now and leave immaturity and low blows at the door.
I am going to graduate in july this year.But I major economy and finance.In fact I do not like this field.Personally I like artyecture and history......
Rabs wrote
Quote:
Hopefully that will change pretty soon, relations between our to countrys are getting kinda cuddely. Part of that is its nice to have a powerful ally sitting right next to a powerful enemy. My slogan to India
This is not depends on SF but the council of India.Judging your words I think u have regard China as the emeny of America.But I do not think so.Although China and America have many conflictions in many field but both the two countries do really have too many same interests and same aims especially in the economic field.
filmmaker wrote
Quote:
for indian side: America want to build much closer relationship with India by selling some advanced weapons, because America need india's helps to contain China. for pakistan side: America need pakistan's efforts to kill terrorists ,so American have to give F-16 to pakistan. I think the main reason of selling weapon to India and pakistan is not to promote or escalate the war between them.
You are right to a degree.but you shoulk know that all the American weapon seller do not care about what the custumers do with the weapons ,alll they care is whether thet can sell more weapons and whetrher they can get more profit.If the India Army use F-16 to kill birds, the American sellers will not care about it at all .All they concern is that whether they can sell more weapon.....
And your two reasons for India are good and exact in political field.This is the original purpose.And we all know that the military is the continument of the politicas........
But the American weapon seller do not care about what their customers do with the weapons they made even they made slaughter and masscare.Indeed,all the American will know that the weapons selled to India and Pakistan will be used as the tools for the war between the two countries easily.Do you think so ?I think you are well-educated ,filmemaker,and I think you can get this conclusion easily.Will u"?

Do you think it is justice when the India and Pakistan army useing American weapons to kill each other even some civilians were killed for some unexpected reason but the American weapon sellers standing away and putting the money into their pocket?Of cause not.

Fillmmaker, you are not the representive of the justice and right.YOu mere the representive of some one, some group.Do not wear the clothes of justice any more, we all know that hypocricy is very bad virture.Right?
June 17th, 2006  
bulldogg
 
 
INDIA DOES NOT BUY FROM THE US... Pakistan buys American and India buys Russian... yessus man.
June 17th, 2006  
SwordFish_13
 
 

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldogg
INDIA DOES NOT BUY FROM THE US... Pakistan buys American and India buys Russian... yessus man.
A Slight Correction India Buys From Russia and Pakistan Gets em Almost Free Form USA
June 17th, 2006  
filmmaker
 
 
Quote:
Fillmmaker, you are not the representive of the justice and right.YOu mere the representive of some one, some group.Do not wear the clothes of justice any more, we all know that hypocricy is very bad virture.Right?
you should read my post clearly before you judge me or define me.
it is unfair to use Hypocricy to me just because I mentioned my opinion about this issues which maybe you do not like or disagree, but I have to tell you my purpose of participating this discussion is not to bash or attack china. I just criticized some ccp's foreign policys which I don't like. my criticism of ccp's foreign policys doesn't mean I pretend to be a presentive of justice and right. I don't represent anything, I only represent my own thought which you can agree or not. there is no need for you to use some words like" Do not wear the clothes of justice" or " hypocricy is bad virtue" to define me. After our discussions I found the problem you have is you keep using your suspicion of my intention of involving this topic to try discuss with me. when I try to tell you what is my opinion of this issue ,you kept telling me why I have my own opinion. the only thing you really need to do is to prove my thought is wrong and your thought is right instead of talking about where I am living or what kind of justice I try to represent. you just made everything so unrelated and complicated. this is not the way you talk with people. you'd better focus on the topic we are talking about and show me your knowldge and intelligence.

Quote:
?I think you are well-educated ,filmemaker,and I think you can get this conclusion easily.Will u"?
again! what you post in here really doesn't make any sense to me. WHAT IS YOUR POINTS? you told me I forgot to put india and pakistan into the list of the country America is willing to sell ,so I explain the situation about india and pakistan is quite different to American ally like japan ,tawain or NATO. and I also try to explain why I think America's intention of selling weapons to both of them is not promote the war. but none of your response has anything to with my opinions.
Quote:
But the American weapon seller do not care about what their customers do with the weapons they made even they made slaughter and masscare
please show me any information about slaughter and masscare between India and Pakistan done by American weapon. if you show me , I will change mind.
Quote:
but you shoulk know that all the American weapon seller do not care about what the custumers do with the weapons ,alll they care is whether thet can sell more weapons and whetrher they can get more profit.If the India Army use F-16 to kill birds, the American sellers will not care about it at all .All they concern is that whether they can sell more weapon.....
we all know the function of weapons is to kill. you just repeat how I feel the issue of weapon deals between china and sundan.

btw, if you think I wear the clothes of justice , or have bad virtue like hypocricy, please just ignore me, because there is nothing we can talk about.
 


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