Vladimir Putin checkmates the West

Lunatik

Active member
Russia has been biding its time, but its victory in Georgia has been brutal - and brilliant

The cartoon images have shown Russia as an angry bear, stretching out a claw to maul Georgia. Russia is certainly angry, and, like a beast provoked, has bared its teeth. But it is the wrong stereotype. What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess. And Moscow has just declared checkmate.

Chess is a slow game. One has to be ready to ignore provocations, lose a few pawns and turn the hubris of others into their own entrapment. For years there has been rising resentment within Russia. Some of this is inevitable: the loss of empire, a burning sense of grievance and the fear that in the 1990s, amid domestic chaos and economic collapse, Russia's views no longer mattered.

A generalised resentment, similar to the sour undercurrents of Weimar Germany, began to focus on specific issues: the nonchalance of the Clinton Administration about Russian sensitivities, especially over the Balkans and in opening Nato's door to former Warsaw Pact members; the neo-conservative agenda of the early Bush years that saw no role for Russia in its global agenda; and Washington's ingratitude after 9/11 for vital Kremlin support over terrorism, Afghanistan and intelligence on extremism.

More infuriating was Western encouragement of “freedom” in the former Soviet satellite states that gave carte blanche to forces long hostile to Russia. In the Baltic states, Soviet occupation could be portrayed as worse than the Nazis. EU commissioners from new member states could target Russian policies. Populists in Eastern Europe could ride to power on anti-Russian rhetoric emboldened by Western applause for their fluency in English.

Nowhere was such taunting more wounding than in Ukraine and Georgia, two countries long part of the Russian Empire, whose history, religion and culture were so intertwined with Russia's. Moscow tried, disastrously, to check Western, and particularly American, influence in Ukraine. The clumsy meddling led to the Orange Revolution.

Georgia was a different matter. Relations were always mercurial, but Eduard Shevardnadze, the wily former Soviet Foreign Minister, knew how to keep atavistic animosities in check. Not so his brash successor, Mikheil Saakashvili. From then on, hubris was Tbilisi's undoing.

It was not simply the dismissive rhetoric, the open door to US advisers or the economic illiteracy in forgetting dependence on Russian energy and remittance from across the border; it was the determined attempt to make Georgia a US regional ally and outpost of US influence.

Big powers do not like other big powers poaching. This may not be moral or fair but it is reality, and one that underpins the Security Council veto. The Monroe Doctrine - “hands off the Americas” - has been policy in Washington for 200 years. The US is ready to risk war to keep out not only other powers but hostile ideologies - in Cuba and Nicaragua.
Vladimir Putin lost several pawns on the chessboard - Kosovo, Iraq, Nato membership for the Baltic states, US renunciation of the ABM treaty, US missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic. But he waited.

The trap was set in Georgia. When President Saakashvili blundered into South Ossetia, sending in an army to shell, kill and maim on a vicious scale (against US advice and his promised word), Russia was waiting.

It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq).

The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television. The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of annihilation.
Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi. Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada to “rescue” US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused cacophony.

There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot.

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4525885.ece
 
He's only the prime minister now, but he's more powerful and influential than President Medvedev. That alone tells a lot.
 
But if anything big truly happens, the world will recognize it... We won't let another Nazi Germany happen... We CAN'T let another Nazi Germany happen... And the rest of the world will agree...


Screw it. I'm moving to Australia.
 

Wonder if he would sell me that hat.

You know I think you guys have been playing far too much Command and Conquer, when the US invaded Grenada or Panama or the Russians invaded Afghanistan did WW3 break out?

Here is a thought Russia attacked Georgia for precisely the reasons they said they did sure they probably were looking for an excuse I am not arguing that but in the end Georgia gave them one now its been a week and its all over but the shouting the Russians will go back to doing what they were doing two weeks ago and the Georgians will go back to pretending that they were "strategic withdrawals" and that they were in control through out.

Yes it is unfortunate that the average every person in Georgia is going to be suffering for years to come but perhaps this will teach them that elections don't make you safe from idiotic politicians.
 
I don't think a World War III will break out.
But it does make people nervous and there is still a chance of more localized conflicts. I think over the years the world has gotten better at localizing conflicts whereas in the past they spilled over easily.
 
He is the archetypal KGB man, a "plotter" who prefers to pull the strings from behind the scenes. I think he is certainly a lot smarter that the west would like to admit.

Underestimate this man at your peril.
 
He's only the prime minister now, but he's more powerful and influential than President Medvedev. That alone tells a lot.

President Medvedev is the puppet and Putin is the Puppet Master. Same system as Germany in the 1930s. You have the President and then the Chancellor. Russia runs with a President and a Prime Minister.

The man is evil but brilliant. Hopefully Russian politics will revert back to it's old system of deposing leaders through coups and purges and Putin will be but a memory.
 
Wonder if he would sell me that hat.

You know I think you guys have been playing far too much Command and Conquer, when the US invaded Grenada or Panama or the Russians invaded Afghanistan did WW3 break out?

Here is a thought Russia attacked Georgia for precisely the reasons they said they did sure they probably were looking for an excuse I am not arguing that but in the end Georgia gave them one now its been a week and its all over but the shouting the Russians will go back to doing what they were doing two weeks ago and the Georgians will go back to pretending that they were "strategic withdrawals" and that they were in control through out.

Yes it is unfortunate that the average every person in Georgia is going to be suffering for years to come but perhaps this will teach them that elections don't make you safe from idiotic politicians.
I wasn't afraid of the United States taking over more territory and oppressing a group of people based on religion/ ethnic background. And I've never played the game, but a very proud country that has seen better days and is extremely bitter does worry me a little, and quite frankly, it SHOULD worry you a little bit too. Russia, China, Korea... All of them make me nervous. Because you never know what they might do, as demonstrated here.

As for the lesson... What, you think we should change our system of government because it didn't work a few times?
 
The American System is in no way perfect but I'll tell you what. It's the best right now. The USA has more rights and freedoms then any other person living in any other nation in the world. We have our screw ups but I'll keep them instead of trade them for yours MontyB.
 
I wasn't afraid of the United States taking over more territory and oppressing a group of people based on religion/ ethnic background. And I've never played the game, but a very proud country that has seen better days and is extremely bitter does worry me a little, and quite frankly, it SHOULD worry you a little bit too. Russia, China, Korea... All of them make me nervous. Because you never know what they might do, as demonstrated here.

As for the lesson... What, you think we should change our system of government because it didn't work a few times?

But at some point in life you are going to realise that a sizable portion of the world doesn't see the USA as being any different to Russia, China or any other state that is trying to spread its influence throughout the world by dodgy underhanded methods.

In the end your lot have in the past undermined governments through out the world including supporting and fermenting revolutions to install puppet governments of your own and have supported tin pot dictatorships just because they chose not to be socialist so when it comes down to it you are right I don't trust the Russians nor the Chinese and I don't trust yours to be looking out for anything but its own interests either and I would bet dollars to donuts that the day little old New Zealand stepped out of line far enough your government would be here doing exactly the same as the Russians did.
 
No that is not true MontyB.
The American government HAS to answer to its people. That is the difference and it is a very important difference. The American people also feel that right and wrong are very important ideas which is an attitude that is not universal. There is a huge difference in dealing with a country whose leadership changes on a regular basis depending on votes (I know the US isn't technically a democracy but it's close enough) and those where the leadership usually stays put and can afford to sit out demonstrations (if any) without the fear of losing their seats. In the end I guess it's about accountability. If you think there's no accountability in the US, look at all the trouble the Republican Party is going through right now. I know for many others around the world this is not satisfactory but it is a LOT more than you can expect out of Russia and China. To equate the US with Russia and the Chinese is ignorance at its finest.
I don't know if there is more freedom in the US than in any other country in the world but it's a country that values actions of moral good. Why the heck do you think I'd rather have America here than the Chinese? These guys DON'T value the moral good. Their drive is brought about by the craving need for dominance and for their own gain. You could argue the same about the American leadership and the corporations but by far the public does NOT stand for those values.
If you want a friend, it better be America.

Russia, China, Korea... All of them make me nervous. Because you never know what they might do, as demonstrated here.
Do I make you nervous?
 
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No that is not true MontyB.
The American government HAS to answer to its people. That is the difference and it is a very important difference. The American people also feel that right and wrong are very important ideas which is an attitude that is not universal. There is a huge difference in dealing with a country whose leadership changes on a regular basis depending on votes (I know the US isn't technically a democracy but it's close enough) and those where the leadership usually stays put and can afford to sit out demonstrations (if any) without the fear of losing their seats. In the end I guess it's about accountability. If you think there's no accountability in the US, look at all the trouble the Republican Party is going through right now. I know for many others around the world this is not satisfactory but it is a LOT more than you can expect out of Russia and China. To equate the US with Russia and the Chinese is ignorance at its finest.
I don't know if there is more freedom in the US than in any other country in the world but it's a country that values actions of moral good. Why the heck do you think I'd rather have America here than the Chinese? These guys DON'T value the moral good. Their drive is brought about by the craving need for dominance and for their own gain. You could argue the same about the American leadership and the corporations but by far the public does NOT stand for those values.
If you want a friend, it better be America.


Do I make you nervous?

So are you saying they didn't keep Hussein in power while he was killing his own people are you saying that they were not involved in supporting the likes of Pinochet while he was dropping his opposition in the ocean (I am sure we can make a list but there is little point), in the end like the Russians and the Chinese the ends justify the means, I have no doubt that the USA is more likely to engage in dialogue to get what it wants than either of the other two but when dialogue fails the differences disappear rapidly.
 
^^ You failed to mention the BIGGEST difference... Morals. The United States has them. Russia doesn't. As we've seen time and time again... Hell, China made a 12 year old lipsynch because a girl had a gap in her teeth.



And yes redneck, you DO make me nervous. CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!
 
^^ You failed to mention the BIGGEST difference... Morals. The United States has them. Russia doesn't. As we've seen time and time again... Hell, China made a 12 year old lipsynch because a girl had a gap in her teeth.



And yes redneck, you DO make me nervous. CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!

As I recall in Barcelona 1992 an archer faked lighting the Olympic torch with a flaming arrow did you lodge a complaint, Ashlee Simpson lip synced her way through how many concerts, did her morals extend to returning the ticket money?

I can understand an attempt to grab the moral high ground when you are standing in quicksand, the simple reality is that you are no different to anyone else.
 
More likely to engage in dialog is actually an important difference. When America has helped dictators, many of not so good reputation or bad reputation, it often has been in order to maintain a balance with those who are even worse.
Saddam Hussein would be a good example. He was no good but he was perceived as a better alternative than Iran so helping him keep Iran in check was the better option.
South Korea actually had a dictatorship but America stood by and things have gotten for the better.
America's support of Suharto kept Indonesia clear of Communism and helped the world keep an important sea route clear. Communism is often down played in the modern times but you can clearly see with what happened in North Korea, China (back in the 50's, 60's and 70's), Vietnam and Cambodia that Communism has brought pain and suffering of similar or greater magnitude compared to the Japanese occupation years but for longer periods of time.
I'm sure America backed some pretty shady characters with no apparent justification at some points but no country involved with the world is ever mistake free. What gives me some faith in America is that when someone has actually done the RIGHT thing, it was usually America. If you say America did wrong here and there, you'd be right, but just how many times have the Russians and the Chinese ever done any good?
NO ONE, in this side of the world can ever say anything historically good about the Chinese except maybe the North Koreans about the Korean War. Hell, even though the North Vietnamese got supplies from the Chinese during the Vietnam war, they STILL hated the Chinese. The Vietnamese still hate the Chinese and probably will for a long time. You think there might be a reason for this?
There are still generations of Koreans here that are thankful for the help that America gave and these people are ANGRY at the current generation for forgetting all the good things that America has done for Korea. Nowadays we may have our differences from time to time but this does NOT change what happened in the past. I know the intervention was a UN thing but without America it would not have happened. Without America's lead the international community would not have shown up. Without American intervention the Japanese could very well be running this place and MILLIONS of people on this side of the world, would live as second class citizens without hope.
That's why when people equate the US with Russia and China the argument just loses its sanity. They are NOT the same. The day the US falls to the level of the Russians and the Chinese, you will know. I will no longer post these words here like I am now.
The Americans may be the only group of people in the world who will take to the streets to protest for the rights, independence and freedom of a country they can't locate on a map and have no idea what language they speak, or what they look like and then send their sons and daughters off to fight for them.
And like I said, America does get it wrong. But they're also the ones who get it right.

So are you saying they didn't keep Hussein in power while he was killing his own people are you saying that they were not involved in supporting the likes of Pinochet while he was dropping his opposition in the ocean (I am sure we can make a list but there is little point), in the end like the Russians and the Chinese the ends justify the means, I have no doubt that the USA is more likely to engage in dialogue to get what it wants than either of the other two but when dialogue fails the differences disappear rapidly.

And the lip sync. Let's not make a big deal out of nothing now.
I'm sure when Oprah Winfrey took that kick in the USA 94 World Cup, the goal didn't split apart because she kicked it so hard.
 
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