Vladimir Putin checkmates the West

the_13th_redneck said:
More likely to engage in dialog is actually an important difference. When America has helped dictators, many of not so good reputation or bad reputation, it often has been in order to maintain a balance with those who are even worse.
Saddam Hussein would be a good example. He was no good but he was perceived as a better alternative than Iran so helping him keep Iran in check was the better option.
South Korea actually had a dictatorship but America stood by and things have gotten for the better.
America's support of Suharto kept Indonesia clear of Communism and helped the world keep an important sea route clear. Communism is often down played in the modern times but you can clearly see with what happened in North Korea, China (back in the 50's, 60's and 70's), Vietnam and Cambodia that Communism has brought pain and suffering of similar or greater magnitude compared to the Japanese occupation years but for longer periods of time.
I'm sure America backed some pretty shady characters with no apparent justification at some points but no country involved with the world is ever mistake free. What gives me some faith in America is that when someone has actually done the RIGHT thing, it was usually America. If you say America did wrong here and there, you'd be right, but just how many times have the Russians and the Chinese ever done any good?
NO ONE, in this side of the world can ever say anything historically good about the Chinese except maybe the North Koreans about the Korean War. Hell, even though the North Vietnamese got supplies from the Chinese during the Vietnam war, they STILL hated the Chinese. The Vietnamese still hate the Chinese and probably will for a long time. You think there might be a reason for this?
There are still generations of Koreans here that are thankful for the help that America gave and these people are ANGRY at the current generation for forgetting all the good things that America has done for Korea. Nowadays we may have our differences from time to time but this does NOT change what happened in the past. I know the intervention was a UN thing but without America it would not have happened. Without America's lead the international community would not have shown up. Without American intervention the Japanese could very well be running this place and MILLIONS of people on this side of the world, would live as second class citizens without hope.
That's why when people equate the US with Russia and China the argument just loses its sanity. They are NOT the same. The day the US falls to the level of the Russians and the Chinese, you will know. I will no longer post these words here like I am now.
The Americans may be the only group of people in the world who will take to the streets to protest for the rights, independence and freedom of a country they can't locate on a map and have no idea what language they speak, or what they look like and then send their sons and daughters off to fight for them.
And like I said, America does get it wrong. But they're also the ones who get it right.
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WOW this changed my day. Heck, changed my week.
 
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I hate the feeling that I may have been chastised for telling the truth and trying to educate a young bloke who was well down the road towards making an fool of himself.
 
Yeah well he was reacting to an accusation that his country was on par with China in terms of being "the bad guys." I don't know any individual who would take that well.
 
I don't care at all what China or Russia thinks of us, because I don't go for that subjective morality BS. What's right is right, what's wrong is wrong.

Don't even try to compare the US to Russia. I've seen what they did when I visited Vilnius and saw that KGB HQ, complete with gas chambers in the basement and 4' by 4' holding cells. Heard the stories of them dragging bodies of resistance members through the streets by a tank, then executing anyone who shed a tear.

America has done underhanded, shady things in the past. Intervened with foreign governments for it's own interests. But still not even close to what you're suggesting, Monty.
 
Lunatik, Thank God someone else noticed what was happening! I don't quite have the knowledge to make such an educated post, but it is pretty much what i was saying.
 
C/1Lt Henderson said:
You think the Iraqis would have been better of with Sadaam still in power? And I'm not talking about Sunni Shiites, I'm talking about the nation of Iraq as a whole. And not just Iraq, all the other scenarios Redneck mentioned. You really think minding our own business would have been the MORAL thing to do?
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As a matter of fact, I do.

Saddam was a terrible man. But when he was there, things RAN. There was electricity, water, steady everyday life. There weren't soldiers patrolling the streets 24/7, checkpoints every mile, electricity for an hour a day, and Iran was kept from flying off the handle. Saddam was evil, but he held the Middle East together. Without him the whole Middle East is extremely unstable, with countries threatening to wipe each other off the map. By removing him from power we destabilized an entire region, threatening the lives of 308 Million to "improve" the lives of 29 Million.

C/1Lt Henderson said:
And don't forget that we NEVER target civilians.
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Which is a horrible way to try to fight a war.

C/1Lt Henderson said:
If the United States was to truly do something EVIL, we can change the President. That's the beauty of democracy... ( You know, that thing we try to promote and then get sneered at for)
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We get sneered at for promoting democracy because our close friends aren't democratic (i.e. Saudi Arabia).

major liability said:
Don't even try to compare the US to Russia. I've seen what they did when I visited Vilnius and saw that KGB HQ, complete with gas chambers in the basement and 4' by 4' holding cells. Heard the stories of them dragging bodies of resistance members through the streets by a tank, then executing anyone who shed a tear.
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Guantanamo Bay. Abu Grahib. The trial of Saddam Hussein.

Oh, we're capable.
 
major liability said:
Not even close.
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I don't like our stance on matters such as these. The common belief of "It could be worse" just breeds apathy. We should care more, and make things better, instead of talking about who's got it worse. If we think it's a crummy system, then it probably is. Instead of talking about who's got it worse, we can work on making things better.

The nazis didn't start with full-fledged killing camps. Just because we're not there yet doesn't mean we can't get there.
 
Most of the people who go to Gitmo come out alive with all their body parts intact.
You can't say the same for many other detention centers around the world. And Gitmo is supposed to be America at its worst.
Do you think "water boarding" would be an issue in Russia?
 
Of course the system is adjusted and moves on as required. US detested in so many countries ? - SO? Many countries don't need reasons to hate, and many countries' political cultures are still primitive.

USA does its best - and no-one can can ask more than that. They can't win 'em all - but they sure do win most of 'em. If I were an American I would stand proud.

World political situation minus USA = chaos. Until someone else has the motivation and the capability, it is the best we have, but USA is constantly maligned by those whose main contribution to the world political situation is in cutting their own toe-nails.

Just a thought you understand. Just an opinion.
 
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Del Boy said:
Of course the system is adjusted and moves on as required. US detested in so many countries ? - SO? Many countries don't need reasons to hate, and many countries' political cultures are still primitive.
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But when the ones who aren't primitive don't like you, it's not cool. America's a powerful nation, but not powerful enough to go it alone.

I'm proud to be an American. I'm disgusted at the chest thumping "we're better than you and we're going to tell you about it" attitude, though. Theodore Roosevelt said "Speak softly but carry a big stick." Right now we're awfully loud and we're brandishing a twig.
 
C/1Lt Henderson said:
I do believe my blood pressure has gone up enough for tonight... It just irks me to see that there are people who truly believe that the United States hasn't done any good... One question though, what are your (MontyB) views on New Zealand's moral stance?


You are undermining the United State's actions against the evil of the world... Denouncing our good leaves only our evil...


Hell, if we wanted to achieve our goals by any means necessary, we'd simply reduce the entire Middle East to rubble and take the oil ourselves... We exercise extreme restraint... And don't forget that we NEVER target civilians. But the Big Bear sure did. And I'm sure China wouldn't care either.
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I'm going to annoy a lot of people by saying this, so i'm heading to my bunker straight after saying this but:


WHO THE HELL GAVE AMERICA THE RIGHT TO POLICE THE WORLD? KEEP YOUR FCUKING NOSE OUT BECAUSE IT SURE AS HELL ISN'T WANTED!:bang:

:hide: Preparing for flakstorm :hide:
 
You've pretty much nailed the issues people have with America here and just about everywhere.
It's like this... let's say you're on a track team and you're real good.
A friend tells other people about you and how good you are, how fast you are and how you'll be the next big thing in your school's track and field history.
Now imagine you telling others the same thing about yourself.
Different, isn't it?

NOTE: I was referring to TOG's post.

Note on World Policing: Funny, in many cases, we asked.
 
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the_13th_redneck said:
Most of the people who go to Gitmo come out alive with all their body parts intact.
You can't say the same for many other detention centers around the world. And Gitmo is supposed to be America at its worst.
Do you think "water boarding" would be an issue in Russia?
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Please do not trivialise this subject. Try telling that to an innocent (by US judgement) taxi driver who had his legs "pulpified" by US troops. The doctors post mortem report stated that had he lived through the beating, he would have needed both legs amputated at the hips.

It is not merely the "Bad guys" who do this type of thing, and making excuses only makes it worse.
 
Insomniac said:
I'm going to annoy a lot of people by saying this, so i'm heading to my bunker straight after saying this but:


WHO THE HELL GAVE AMERICA THE RIGHT TO POLICE THE WORLD? KEEP YOUR FCUKING NOSE OUT BECAUSE IT SURE AS HELL ISN'T WANTED!:bang:

:hide: Preparing for flakstorm :hide:
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You're not getting it from me. I'm in agreement with you.

the_13th_redneck said:
You've pretty much nailed the issues people have with America here and just about everywhere.
It's like this... let's say you're on a track team and you're real good.
A friend tells other people about you and how good you are, how fast you are and how you'll be the next big thing in your school's track and field history.
Now imagine you telling others the same thing about yourself.
Different, isn't it?
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I tend to hate those people, but maybe I'm supposed to be a suck-up who worships them and kisses their toes. Is that what the rest of Earth should do too?
 
If the shoe fits..............


summer-patriots.jpg
 
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