Violence on Iraqi POWs.

May 6th, 2004  
Italian Guy

Topic: Violence on Iraqi POWs.

Ok, ok, left-winging media over here are airing all that crap about those photos of GIs using violence or Iraqi prisoners in a Baghdad jail ( mostly humiliations, though. No tortures-for-fun being documented to date; but still humiliation is possibly even worse for Arabs than torture is, suffices to say how humiliated and frustrated they feel regarding Israel and so on ).
So what the hell is going on ??? I know a general's been fired, some soldiers will be trialed by Martial Court, but still what the hell is going on????

Is just something that normally happens everytime and everywhere and it's simply seldom documented, does it just fall within regular statistics ( say oh 5 people out of 130,000 are mere statistical figures, no big deal ), or should a person such as I who constantly and publicly support the US be concerned about it ?
May 6th, 2004  
There are yahoos in every group of people on the planet, unfortunately, these ones had a camera. We have another thread about this, can't seem to find it right now, but as soon as I do I'll post the link.
May 6th, 2004  
it will pass it happenned to every army in the world it happens in every war...
May 6th, 2004  
What is torture?

Is it the treatment provided to our soldiers or nationals in Iraq or Afghanistan, the recorded pictures and videos of gory murders and mutilated bodies so gruesome that our media decided not to report…for our own good? (thanks to the Internet and peer to peer they are available anyways!)
Is it only the bad treatment of a few prisoners by a few psychos in uniform placarded all over by the same media….for our own good?
I want it all! I want to see side by side what was done to our Iraqi prisoners and what they did to their American captives! I want the media to report the cruelty of war…from both sides! Let us decide on what torture is, what abuse is and what is standard conditioning of prisoners.
And as a reminder, the Geneva Convention only protects combatants when they have a known and identified leader, when they carry their weapons openly and when they all wear the same distinctive sign…By choosing to hide in schools, hospitals and holy shrines, by choosing to fight among and behind the civilian population, by choosing the strategy of terror, by not wearing any distinctive signs and by executing prisoners and mutilating bodies, our enemies have chosen not to be protected by that convention.

America would have fought WW2 like we are fighting modern conflicts, we would be goose stepping around by now…and speaking a foreign language: German!
Do any of you dare to remember how we bombed Germans and Japanese into submission, leveled their cities and landmarks with incendiary bombs, summarily tried, jailed or executed many of them? It never occurred to our elders to let Goebbels broadcast Nazi news in America, to interview Hitler in his bunker, tolerate dissent or let anything or anybody undermine the war and the moral of our troops!

In Vietnam, the war was winnable and by 1975, the communist’s forces were scattered, weakened and inefficient…US forces won all the battles but lost the war… at home! In Iraq, our forces won the land battle against the standing enemy armies of Saddam and won all the battles fought against the various local militias afterwards but like in the seventies, we are losing that war at home. Ask Mister Kerry….he knows it all: the war, the crimes and the anti-war on the home front.But today, in our twisted world of twisted values, Arab media can freely glorify the "freedom fighters" and display the pictures of dead Americans, each one a small step toward victory against the "great Satan" ( ) while at home, American death and suffering are absent from the news except for the body count...How can we win a war without involving the people, without fueling anger against the enemy and cultivating patriotism?

Did anybody ever teach us never to pick a fight one is not willing to finish?
In Iraq, our troops are fighting, with their hands tied by the media, the polls, the public opinion, the international community, our democratic and Christian values, international laws, treaties and conventions we signed. Our troops are targets to the most coward form of terrorism, slaughtered and maimed one at a time by car bombs, roadside bombs, so called “freedom killers” sniping them in the back. Powerless, they do keep track of the body count and resent the indecision of our leaders stuck in an election year. They see first hand the gruesome reality of the war fought by ruthless enemies, thousand of miles away from our politically correct dreamland. We are expecting so much from them and so little from the opposing forces that the whole thing is turning into a sad joke, another drama. Did we send them to verify again theories on human attrition in war and its domestic effects or to wipe out the enemies of democracy?

Each time a GI is blown to pieces on “Roadside bomb alley” or killed by a sniper hiding in a school in Iraq, domestic support to the war, the administration and the president slides down a couple of points.
Each time civilian hostages are taken and gorily executed, or when car bombs destroy the headquarters of some local agency trying to rebuild Iraq, domestic and international support inches down.
Each time a powerless coalition soldier is murdered and or mutilated, anger and revolt grows among his peers in uniform, stuck there far too long, at the mercy of wavering poll driven politicians elected by media controlled suburbanites.
Each time a powerless coalition soldier is murdered and or mutilated without any decisive action taken from the leadership to put an end to the current politically correct status quo, anger and revolt grows among other soldiers that feel abandoned.
Each time a powerless coalition soldier is murdered and or mutilated there, anger and revolt spreads and revenge is sought.
Each time anger, revolt and revenge fill the hearts of soldiers, “collateral damages” follow.

Do you want to know what torture is? Torture is to get up every day to drive a truck of supply along “Roadside bomb alley” after having seen first end what nails, rocks and metallic shrapnels do to an unprotected human body.
Torture is to get up every day to go on foot patrol and expect any civilian to pull out a gun from under its robe and shoot you in the face.
Torture is to see the daily enemy’s lack of respect for human life, lack of respect for his own people that he uses as a shield or kill for propaganda.
Torture and pain is to restore power and water, resume oil production, open a school or build a bridge and see it blown to pieces by the obscurantist the next day.
Torture is to get up every day and be shot at from a hospital, a school or a Mosque and not be able to return fire while your comrades are spilling their blood in the gutters.
Torture is to get up every day knowing that if captured you will be denied any kind of mercy and that even your dead body will be used for psychological effect, returned as pulp or hung from a bridge for the blood thirsty media.
Torture is to remember the faces of the 750 dead and the blood of the 4100 wounded or maimed comrades in arms you accompanied for their last trip home, most of them hit “ when military vehicle hit an improvised explosive device…”, as the Pentagon officially reports it.
Torture is to realize that most of the wounded average 25 years old and many among them are left brain-damaged or blind, or both, from shrapnel and dirt blown to the face by roadside bombs, the “improvised explosive devices” that hit the only vital area not protected by body armor.
Torture is to come back home on short leave and watch biased home media echoing enemy propaganda, or listen to well fed, safe and comfy fellow Americans and elected official question the war the elected government sent you to wage.
Torture is to see heroes like Pat Tillman depicted as morons on MSNBC.
Torture is to be called a “baby killer” , to see Al-Jazeera news and biased hatred broadcasted home, to see the same people that accompanied our soldiers to the carriers, waving flags, cheering and all, now turning their back with disgust, burning the flag or marching for peace. Torture is what all theses contradictory feelings, all that fear, pain, sorrow and anger do to our soldiers back there; it is what keeps them awake and accompany them daily for 365 days. A female US doctor in Iraq was quoted saying: "I go to sleep and dream about them (-the young American casualties-) all night long, awaking in a sweat because something is wrong," Welcome back to Vietnam and remember the German saying: “ Children, enjoy war because peace will be terrifying!”

Do you have any idea of what goes in the mind of our average GI Joe, our good US kid that went on a mission, to protect us?
I know that it is not a place I would like to visit right now!
May 6th, 2004  
Mod Edit: Gotcha covered.
May 7th, 2004  
eric now thats a post...althaugh i disagree (thats my job lol)

by going in iraq only saved "us" for gas prices and even now there sky high lol

2nd isint the US more "civilised" then iraq so they are suposed to show the example...
May 7th, 2004  
Originally Posted by Jtf2
by going in iraq only saved "us" for gas prices and even now there sky high lol

Are you talking about the US? Canada? Who is "us?" If you're talking about the US, that makes no sense considering where the majority of our oil comes from. There are other factors at play, the petrol industry is pretty complicated and "just goin' to shoot up I-rack and git sum free oil" doesn't cut it in the real world, no matter what the left parrots. Since this is off topic, I won't go any deeper - but if you want to discuss it, start a thread on it. I'll bite.

As for the posted topic, I've said pretty much all I can say in the various other threads roaming about. People make mistakes, sometimes very foolish mistakes - in the military, mistake or not, you are held accountable for your actions. The military is no different than every other walk of life. You will ways have the 10% rule. 10% of whatever number of people you employ will turn out to be asshats or just stupid.
May 7th, 2004  
Italian Guy
We have a saying in Italy: there are opinions voiced by belly ( heart ) and opinions voiced by head ( brain ). We all have opinions in our belly, and I guess most of them are just Eric's posted ones. Thanks Eric.
May 8th, 2004  
I am a first time poster. Good view points on this issue. It can be debated on what is fair, It can be debated that "they do terrible things to us". It can be justified by their actions but here is a knuckle dragger view.
Warriors do understand both sides of this issue. Thet know and feel the anger at having to live with a code of conduct that the enemy will not adhere to. Certainly, we can do what they do....but we dont and....we shouldnt.
I see nothing in those photo's that makes me say, good job. What you see is cowards doing cowardly things to POW's. It wan not interogation, it was wunna be warriors playing bad ass with the helpless, unarmed, non-combatants.
I see and feel the anger all soldiers do about how our soldiers are treated as POW's by them. We are NOT them! We are or should be better than them. I fervently believe in closing with and destroying the enemy. We should do it with utmost efficiency, with malice, and with the intent and goal of their destruction. But when a POW is taken, we have people trained to interogate. My Code of Conduct does not allow me to butcher helpless people. It allows me to fight and win, kill the enemy....but humiliate prisoners for amusement. No. THe poeple doing these things to the POW's are cowards, just as the Terroists are cowards. What they have done has repercussions. Yes, we will get past it as one poster said, but it does not excuse the pure idiocy of the action.
Being a warrior and following the laws and codes of conduct are mutually agreeable thoughts.
May 9th, 2004  
Just another incident i supose