Veteran cuts down Mexican flag flying above U.S. banner

senojekips said:
Perhaps he just decided that enough was enough, someone had to make a public example of this rudeness???

There are times when the authorities have more to do than run around policing such offences, this in no way reduces the wrongfulness of the act, good manners alone, should have decreed that he fly the Mexican flag below that of the Star and Stripes whilst within the US and of course vice versa if he were in Mexico.

It was a blatant slap in the face to all US citizens, pure and simple. The business operator got what he asked for. What I ask is "why is he surprised"?
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I think the point being made is why contact the media before doing something.

If you see something that infuriates you to the point of action do you:
A) Get a sudden rush of blood to the head and go sort it out?
B) Check the statute books and and then send an email to the local newspaper?
C) Phone the media, wait for them to arrive and then carry out an action before making a patriotic speech?

I am betting the the answer from most people will be A not C.
 
senojekips said:
Perhaps he just decided that enough was enough, someone had to make a public example of this rudeness???

There are times when the authorities have more to do than run around policing such offences, this in no way reduces the wrongfulness of the act, good manners alone, should have decreed that he fly the Mexican flag below that of the Star and Stripes whilst within the US and of course vice versa if he were in Mexico.

It was a blatant slap in the face to all US citizens, pure and simple. The business operator got what he asked for. What I ask is "why is he surprised"?

Monty, I believe there are times when the Neanderthals have their place.
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Rudeness yes. Infraction of published law.Yes.

I'm looking it from a different perspective than you are.

If I had gotten that call. By his phoning the media and then waiting waiting for the media before acting. I as the responding officer can more than articulate in my report that he acted with intent and or premeditation to commit a statutory violation. In those circumstances I would have no choice but to arrest him. Whether or not I agreed with or was supportive of his point of view. Or whether or not he was acting against a breach of the law in regards to improper display of the flag.

I'm not saying that it in anyway decreases the violation. But I see nowhere where he contacted the authorities. Marsh had the best answer call the cops let them speak to him. If he refuses (he probably wouldn't if it was done right) then pursue it thru the district attorneys office and let them sort it out with the US District Attorney.
 
mmarsh said:
Sorry Folks,

Thats why the police are called law-enforcement, (as in they can enforce the laws, not ordinary citizens). The bar owner was wrong and it was illegal to display the flag like that, BUT its never for ordinary citizens to take the laws into their own hands. That's a very slippery slope, once you start down it on a minor thing such as this, things can very quickly get out of control. In fact, its usually what happens, the Ku Klux Klan and various gun fights in the Wild West were all about people taking the law (or what they thought was the law) into their own hands. You don't ever want to go there.

As USMC said, what the vet did, despite the best of intentions WAS vandalism and WAS criminal trespass, and probably theft as well (the vet kept the US flag).

The bar owner COULD have press charges had he wished (and he still might). Even if I was in the wrong, if someone touched my property without permission I would press charges. And who knows, had this been in Texas or Florida the bar owner might have claimed 'Castle Doctrine' protection (in defending place of business) and shot the vet dead, and THAT would have been legal. Strange world we live in isn't it?

The best solution was if the vet simply ASKED for the bar owner to change the display of flags first, which there is NO indication that he did.

Thats why TALKING to people is usually the best way of resolving disputes.
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USMC

I don't disagree that the PD and the Feds have better things to do. But I think most people if they were told by a local LEO to remove an offensive display would do so. Most people are not ACLU attorneys and don't want a hassle with the local sheriff over a flag.
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Ah but assuming US law is similar to Australian law then his intention is part of the crime. Did he intend it as vandalism.... or was his intention to uphold federal law? In Australia that would raise a blip on the police radar, they have better things to do then charge a veteren with vandalism for doing something that was technically (by black letter law) wrong, but by the greater good was right. Plus it would get thrown out of the magistrates court, police prosecutors wouldn't touch it and the DPP would laugh at it.
 
senojekips said:
Misplaced honour??... come again? I dunno about the Netherlands Ted, but where I come from patriotism is never "misplaced". Other than that the act was against the law so he was just doing his duty as a law abiding citizen.

P.S. in this case Neanderthal is spelt with a capital letter.:) Go Neanderthals!!
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I call it misplaced when it leads to all kind of excessive behaviour while defending your countries honour. Loving your country is one thing, carrying knifes the size of a broad sword (which is also illegal over here) to cut down other peoples flags is another!

And good catch with the capital letters.... I am usualy quite meticulous with those..... scheisse :(
 
When the plantation owners rose up against the British crown, they committed a crime.
When a Korean patriot (Ahn Jung-gun) shot the Japanese governer of the Korean peninsula, he committed a crime.
...
I can think of many examples (mostly from Korea) of "crimes" committed that saved the country.
In this case, he didn't save the country, but sometimes you have to make a stand.
 
AussieNick

I don't think it matters. In this case the vet crossed into someones personal property with the sole intent of doing vandalism, -he even called the press before he did it. And it doesn't matter if he was upholding the law -only LEO's have that right. Its as I said above you do not have the right to enforce the law -even if you are right.

The Ku Klux Klan terrorized the south with its interpretation of the law.

Redneck

I dont think you can compare the two cases. Both of your examples involve insurrection against the government, while this case is about a single individual appointing himself as a government law enforcement agent.
 
03USMC said:
Rudeness yes. Infraction of published law.Yes.

I'm looking it from a different perspective than you are.

If I had gotten that call. By his phoning the media and then waiting waiting for the media before acting. I as the responding officer can more than articulate in my report that he acted with intent and or premeditation to commit a statutory violation. In those circumstances I would have no choice but to arrest him. Whether or not I agreed with or was supportive of his point of view. Or whether or not he was acting against a breach of the law in regards to improper display of the flag.

I'm not saying that it in anyway decreases the violation. But I see nowhere where he contacted the authorities. Marsh had the best answer call the cops let them speak to him. If he refuses (he probably wouldn't if it was done right) then pursue it thru the district attorneys office and let them sort it out with the US District Attorney.
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And there is the folly with mandatory arrest laws that take your discretion away.

The man stopped a crime. No different than if I shot a bank robber or punched my wife in the nose if she was wailing on me. But in these scenarios (in AZ) you'd have me in cuffs or you'd be out of a job. And that is nonsense.

Want to fly the Mexican flag? Back to Mexico with you. Why did you come here? (You is generic, 03, not directed at you in any way). I wouldn't move to Ireland and disrespect them like that - and, damnit, plain and simple, too much blood has been spilled for our flag to watch some immigrant dishonor it because it's the in thing to do in support of his illegal constituents that want America as a new Mexico.

He should have burned it, like they do here to ours. Turn about is fair play. Want respect? Give respect.

Stop crawling over our borders like fleas on a rabid dog, speak English, stop burning our flag, stop supporting FELONIOUS activity with parades to get amnesty. START being Americans. Or GTFO. And I have an 11.5 size boot to help the first volunteer.

Tired of this crap.
 
MontyB said:
I think the point being made is why contact the media before doing something.

If you see something that infuriates you to the point of action do you:
A) Get a sudden rush of blood to the head and go sort it out?
B) Check the statute books and and then send an email to the local newspaper?
C) Phone the media, wait for them to arrive and then carry out an action before making a patriotic speech?

I am betting the the answer from most people will be A not C.
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C for me, bro.

Sometimes the sheeple need to see a real man in action before they'll get off their butts and do something. But Survivor is on tonight, which is of course more important :roll:

If the media reported a TENTH of our outrage as they do for the Hispanic community then just maybe people would crawl out of their caccoons and realize that this is a serious issue.

Dude probably didn't want 50 Mexicans coming out of the bar beating on him like they used to do in my school - that's why he called the media: witnesses. I'd have done the same. If they came after him, his message is conveyed with much more impact as these CRIMINALS will be on television (assuming illegals were there - like you, I don't know).

Except I would have burned the flag and peed on it to put it out. This is America. They do it to ours. Don't like it done to yours? GTFO or don't fly it. DUH.

If cutting down that flag is a crime, it damn sure shouldn't be. That's not what people give their lives to defend.
 
AZ_Infantry said:
C for me, bro.

Sometimes the sheeple need to see a real man in action before they'll get off their butts and do something. But Survivor is on tonight, which is of course more important :roll:

If the media reported a TENTH of our outrage as they do for the Hispanic community then just maybe people would crawl out of their caccoons and realize that this is a serious issue.

Dude probably didn't want 50 Mexicans coming out of the bar beating on him like they used to do in my school - that's why he called the media: witnesses. I'd have done the same. If they came after him, his message is conveyed with much more impact as these CRIMINALS will be on television (assuming illegals were there - like you, I don't know).

Except I would have burned the flag and peed on it to put it out. This is America. They do it to ours. Don't like it done to yours? GTFO or don't fly it. DUH.

If cutting down that flag is a crime, it damn sure shouldn't be. That's not what people give their lives to defend.
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So for you its more politics than patriotism because I know in matters of patriotism I tend to react first which would be A.

Ok so heres heres another question had the bar owner decided that the guy chopping down his flags was a serious threat to his safety (being armed, trespassing and attacking his property) and decided to defend himself with the shotgun under his bed what would the legal outcome have been?

Now this may just be my "liberal side" coming out but heres is how I personally would have handled it.

Approach the bar owner and point out the problem and assuming he realised his mistake gone about my business, however had the bar owner told me to go take a flying leap I would then have pointed out the folly of bad publicity and his bank balance (businesses tend to cater to the masses to improve their cash flow).

If that didn't work...
I would have left, contacted the police and told them to sort it out and soon after that contacted the local media to ensure that he got the required publicity (note the previous statement about cash flow).

If that didn't work...
I would have carried out the actions he did, but first note that there are two attempts to solve the problem in an intelligent manner before the Neanderthal in me pops out.
 
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MontyB said:
So for you its more politics than patriotism because I know in matters of patriotism I tend to react first which would be A.

Ok so heres heres another question had the bar owner decided that the guy chopping down his flags was a serious threat to his safety (being armed, trespassing and attacking his property) and decided to defend himself with the shotgun under his bed what would the legal outcome have been?

Now this may just be my "liberal side" coming out but heres is how I personally would have handled it.

Approach the bar owner and point out the problem and assuming he realised his mistake gone about my business, however had the bar owner told me to go take a flying leap I would then have pointed out the folly of bad publicity and his bank balance (businesses tend to cater to the masses to improve their cash flow).

If that didn't work...
I would have left, contacted the police and told them to sort it out and soon after that contacted the local media to ensure that he got the required publicity (note the previous statement about cash flow).

If that didn't work...

I would have carried out the actions he did, but first note that there are two attempts to solve the problem in an intelligent manner before the Neanderthal in me pops out.
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It's more complicated than that, Monty. To me, patriotism and politics go hand-in-hand. It's not enough to suggest one exists without the other.

I also would have spoken with the owner first - but I would have had the media there when I did so. The conversation would have went as follows, cameras rolling:

Sir, with all due respect to your allegiance to your homeland, this is America. Flying any flag above ours is a crime. Take it down and fix it or I will right here and now on public tv. I didn't lose friends fighting for this country for you to disrespect it as you are doing, intentionally or not. So I am asking you nicely just this one time to fix the issue right now. Otherwise I will fix it.

Perhaps this is my conservative side speaking, but...

If he didn't IMMEDIATELY correct it, I'd forgoe the police and hack it down, burn it, and pee on it. Then I'd go to jail and then I'd be on Bill O'Reilly telling my side of the story and why this country is screwed when I have no rights to defend those who bled for that flag. They going to convict me for being a patriot when they've never listened to us in the first place? Go ahead. Shame on the cop that slaps the cuffs on.

And having a knife may scare people in your country, but we have gun rights here. If the bar owner has a shotgun (his legal right if he's not illegal or catering to illegals, but ILLEGAL if alcohol is served) and shot me when I never threatened him with said knife, my family would be set and he'd be in prison forever.

But if he pulled said shotgun on ME he'd have 2 full mags of 230-grain .45 goodness ventilating him before he ever made up his mind to use his gun.

I realize that it's difficult for other countries to understand our issues, but this illegal immigration thing has most of this country ready to take up arms against our government and take matters into our own hands. Don't want vigalantee justice? Enforce the f-ing laws this country was founded on, close the f-ing borders, and stop pushing men like me and the guy that cut the flag down.

Simple.
 
Don't take this the wrong way but the way you explained it made it come across as being more interested in your 15 minutes of fame than carrying out and act of patriotism.

How can you argue that you want the laws of the nation enforced when you are prepared to ignore them and break them to make your point?

As far as not understanding your laws and problems well thats partially true however I would bet that I understand better than most given that I have family and property in Arizona on top of this I was educated there and spend between 3-4 months in the country every year so while I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the place I do have an understanding of the issues.
 
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MontyB said:
Don't take this the wrong way but the way you explained it made it come across as being more interested in your 15 minutes of fame than carrying out and act of patriotism.

How can you argue that you want the laws of the nation enforced when you are prepared to ignore them and break them to make your point?

As far as not understanding your laws and problems well thats partially true however I would bet that I understand better than most given that I have family and property in Arizona on top of this I was educated there and spend between 3-4 months in the country every year so while I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the place I do have an understanding of the issues.
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Differences aside, next time you're in AZ look me up. I would be proud to buy you a beer.

I never meant to dismiss your understanding of the issues, only to describe the way we feel living with them. In that, yes, it is different. But in the end, we're all friends here (or should be), and my home is open to you. I'd enjoy sitting with you over a platter of hot wings and a pitcher of (cheap American) cold beer.

*offers handshake*
 
AZ_Infantry said:
Differences aside, next time you're in AZ look me up. I would be proud to buy you a beer.

I never meant to dismiss your understanding of the issues, only to describe the way we feel living with them. In that, yes, it is different. But in the end, we're all friends here (or should be), and my home is open to you. I'd enjoy sitting with you over a platter of hot wings and a pitcher of (cheap American) cold beer.

*offers handshake*
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Unfortunately we just got back to New Zealand (March 8th) from the Christmas with the Inlaws trip, for the record I never actually thought you did dismiss my understanding of things and I freely admit that spending a few months a year somewhere is not the same as living there.

As far as cheap beer goes I am a Kiwi we generally don't care what we drink.

:)
 
AZ_Infantry said:
And there is the folly with mandatory arrest laws that take your discretion away.

The man stopped a crime. No different than if I shot a bank robber or punched my wife in the nose if she was wailing on me. But in these scenarios (in AZ) you'd have me in cuffs or you'd be out of a job. And that is nonsense.

Want to fly the Mexican flag? Back to Mexico with you. Why did you come here? (You is generic, 03, not directed at you in any way). I wouldn't move to Ireland and disrespect them like that - and, damnit, plain and simple, too much blood has been spilled for our flag to watch some immigrant dishonor it because it's the in thing to do in support of his illegal constituents that want America as a new Mexico.

He should have burned it, like they do here to ours. Turn about is fair play. Want respect? Give respect.

Stop crawling over our borders like fleas on a rabid dog, speak English, stop burning our flag, stop supporting FELONIOUS activity with parades to get amnesty. START being Americans. Or GTFO. And I have an 11.5 size boot to help the first volunteer.

Tired of this crap.
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Agree. I do have discreation but there are times such as in this scenerio that no matter how much I agree with the action the law has to enforced with an eye to the totality of the circumstance.

If you shot a bank robber here. You wouldn't go in cuffs. You'd be investigated and interviewed and probably be cut loose with a job offer provided the shoot was clean. The DV issue. were it me you and your wife would go.

I agree with your other sentiments. Like I said I look at this scenerio and see a laundry list of headaches I'd rathar not deal with.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Right. We don't dislike someone for disagreeing with us. We dislike people who disrespect us.
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That, in my opinion is the most quotable quote I've seen on this forum since I joined.

I've never heard it before, but I'm sure I will use it in the future. You should put your name to that.

Redneck, You'd be racking up the rep points if I were allowed to give you one.
 
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