The Vasque Country

[Charge 7]

Seems pretty clear to me he was talking about eliminating a terrorist threat. Nobody said anything about gas chambers.

 

[A Can of Man]

Stauro, can you, with 100% certainty and guarantee, tell us that there is absolutely no form of anything that can fall under the definition of "torture" going on in Spain regarding the ETA?

No I'm for what Spain does with ETA... hell it's neccessary, so that's not the point. The question is the double standard. Can you REALLY guarantee this?

Check out this report from Amnesty International.
http://hawaii.indymedia.org/mail.php?id=5300
I think they're a biased lot, basically a Stockholm Syndrome on steriods, but hey, sources like these have been hounding away at the American reputation for years.

This article is actually on the UK's Amnesty International official site.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/14388.shtml

And something else...
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cat/decisions/catD-Spain2.htm

And this was from a 2 minutes search.

 

[Corocotta]

seems pretty clear to me that he was talking about ETA, rather than building gas chambers for all the basques

Thanks chewie, it is great that some body understands. Charge & 03: your compresion of written english is pretty bad. If you read my post again in an objetive way and in its context you will understand the meaning. I don´t want this topic to become into a dialectial discussion, so if this is gonna be your only argument please find another topic.

Stauro, can you, with 100% certainty and guarantee, tell us that there is absolutely no form of anything that can fall under the definition of "torture" going on in Spain regarding the ETA?

I can guarantee you with 100% of success that torture hapened( there are many high range militars in jail concerning the torture and murder in Itxaurrondo) and that it might happen oftenly. Spain is not a perfect place like US, if the police catch a terrorist that they day before put a bomb a blew up a car with dad,mam and daugther they will probably take the s*it out of him. The diference is that we recognise that it hapens, put the people in jail and try to solve it so it will never happen again. You guys have serious problems to pronounce the word torture, and I can guarantee you with 100% success that it also happens in US. Can you guarantee me that it does not happen?? i will do also a 2 minute search and see what international amnisty says...may be you do not wanna hear.[/quote]

 

[MontyB]

I didn't think there was anything wrong with it either other than it being obviously duplicitous. (i.e. "it's okay for us but not for you")

I think you are being somewhat selective in the words you select for alternative meanings, it is very clear that he meant that ETA will cease to exist as a combative unit and by the looks of it through the development of a political movement rather than through physical extinction.

I will back Chewie on this one.

 

[Corocotta]

I didn't think there was anything wrong with it either other than it being obviously duplicitous. (i.e. "it's okay for us but not for you")

I think you are being somewhat selective in the words you select for alternative meanings, it is very clear that he meant that ETA will cease to exist as a combative unit and by the looks of it through the development of a political movement rather than through physical extinction.

I will back Chewie on this one.

thanks monty, i needed a litle bit of support!

 

[Charge 7]

And you're being very "selective" in your interpretation of my comprehension (that's the word not "compresion") of written English. I didn't mean to infer one way or the other about "extinguish" being meant as killing the Basques off or eliminating them as a threat by incarceration. What I meant was you feel it's perfectly justifiable to remove a terrorist threat from existence when it applies to you, but feel free to condemn those who do not fit your "liberal" thinking that are doing exactly the same thing in removing a threat to themselves. Again I say you are duplicitous. So keep on spinning.

 

[chewie_nz]

he has already stated that it's not the capturing of terrorists by the US, but of the TORTURING of the captives, that is the issue here.

 

[Charge 7]

And we've already said that whatever you want to call "torture" has been identified and the very few individuals have been caught and punished. They were rogues and it was never a sanctified policy of the US military, but you go on and on as if it was.

 

[Corocotta]

And you're being very "selective" in your interpretation of my comprehension (that's the word not "compresion") of written English. I didn't mean to infer one way or the other about "extinguish" being meant as killing the Basques off or eliminating them as a threat by incarceration. What I meant was you feel it's perfectly justifiable to remove a terrorist threat from existence when it applies to you, but feel free to condemn those who do not fit your "liberal" thinking that are doing exactly the same thing in removing a threat to themselves. Again I say you are duplicitous. So keep on spinning.

For me it is always great removing terrorist, but with the correct methods.
Thanks for the gramma leason.

Stauro, can you, with 100% certainty and guarantee, tell us that there is absolutely no form of anything that can fall under the definition of "torture" going on in Spain regarding the ETA?

Sorry, I almost forget, while the PSOE(Socialist Party) was in the power during the 80-90s in Spain we had a terrorist group of the state. They were called GAL(Antiterrorist Liberal Group).The kidnaped, torture and killed ETA members. Many members are now in prision, at least 15, including a general of the Civil Guard

 

[A Can of Man]

There you go Stauro. And as a result what happened? ETA shrunk like a lump of foam in a bathtub.
You guys tortured and got results. When people were found guilty of either torture or inproper conduct they were jailed.
As for the Abu Grahib thing, okay let's say it's really classified as torture. In that case this would be the most softest of all tortures in history. The SOFTEST. And the people who were doing this were either forced to resign or were court martialed.
So WHY are you pressing this issue?

 

[Corocotta]

There you go Stauro. And as a result what happened? ETA shrunk like a lump of foam in a bathtub.
You guys tortured and got results. When people were found guilty of either torture or inproper conduct they were jailed.
As for the Abu Grahib thing, okay let's say it's really classified as torture. In that case this would be the most softest of all tortures in history. The SOFTEST. And the people who were doing this were either forced to resign or were court martialed.
So WHY are you pressing this issue?

you are wrong while the GAL aws working we had the meanest period of terrorist attack in spanish history. The had the perfect justification for their acts. They also played the role of the victims. ETA is dying because all terrorist that get caught have to front 40 years in prision, no body likes that. Another reason is French help. Science ETA started threating french judges, they realiced that they also had a problem and ETA lost their sactuary in suthern France.
The only thing you will get using the same methods as terrorist do is giving them a justification for more murders.
In Spain we have more experience than US fighting terrorist, we used the dirty methods and did not work, an strict aplication of the law is the ONLY way to remove terrorist.

 

[chewie_nz]

There you go Stauro. And as a result what happened? ETA shrunk like a lump of foam in a bathtub.
You guys tortured and got results. When people were found guilty of either torture or inproper conduct they were jailed.
As for the Abu Grahib thing, okay let's say it's really classified as torture. In that case this would be the most softest of all tortures in history. The SOFTEST. And the people who were doing this were either forced to resign or were court martialed.
So WHY are you pressing this issue?

you are wrong while the GAL aws working we had the meanest period of terrorist attack in spanish history. The had the perfect justification for their acts. They also played the role of the victims. ETA is dying because all terrorist that get caught have to front 40 years in prision, no body likes that. Another reason is French help. Science ETA started threating french judges, they realiced that they also had a problem and ETA lost their sactuary in suthern France.
The only thing you will get using the same methods as terrorist do is giving them a justification for more murders.
In Spain we have more experience than US fighting terrorist, we used the dirty methods and did not work, an strict aplication of the law is the ONLY way to remove terrorist.

on a similar note see how far the Brits got fighting dirty with the IRA, it didn't work with the black & tans all the way through to the SAS.

it took the desire to move on from the violent ways from within the terrorists

 

[A Can of Man]

You got a point there.
I think maybe with the case of the Basques and the Northern Irish, the problem was that it was at HOME and it was too repressive. Basically what they wanted was a level of autonomy and possibly independence but I think most level headed people tend to settle for autonomy.
Home front terror... yeah, I'm going to have to give that one to the Spanish.

However, I don't know if the same rules apply for international terrorism. Then again, even that comes in a gazillion different forms.

 

[Corocotta]

finally we agree in somethig!!!
Yes,you are right,it is not the same having the terrorist at home.....but I think we should apply the same methods, the islamic are even worst than ETA, the religion is involved, the holy war and all that crap....

 

[A Can of Man]

I'm telling you, I am capable of being convinced. It's not like I'm an inflexible hard head that some people take me as. Prove me your case and show me that it's better than mine and chances are, I will agree with you.

 

[Corocotta]

I'm telling you, I am capable of being convinced. It's not like I'm an inflexible hard head that some people take me as. Prove me your case and show me that it's better than mine and chances are, I will agree with you.

I am too as well. I think that independence doesn´t have much sense in Europe now, everybody is talking about union and they want to separete...

 

[A Can of Man]

I think as long as the Spanish government gives autonomy to the Basque Country and gives the required rights to each Basque individual, they should be okay with being a part of Spain.

 

[03USMC]

Charge & 03: your compresion of written english is pretty bad. If you read my post again in an objetive way and in its context you will understand the meaning. I don´t want this topic to become into a dialectial discussion, so if this is gonna be your only argument please find another topic.

Spain is not a perfect place like US, if the police catch a terrorist that they day before put a bomb a blew up a car with dad,mam and daugther they will probably take the s*it out of him. The diference is that we recognise that it hapens, put the people in jail and try to solve it so it will never happen again. You guys have serious problems to pronounce the word torture, and I can guarantee you with 100% success that it also happens in US. Can you guarantee me that it does not happen?? i will do also a 2 minute search and see what international amnisty says...may be you do not wanna hear.

[/quote]


Your standard insult tactic right Chico. Someone doesn't agree with you and you insult their intelligence. My comprehension of the English Language is very good. You were caught in a double standard statement and now you look for a way out thru insults. Nice.

Lets see you have managed to accuse the entire United States Armed Forces of torture and now United States Law Enforcement is your target of choice. Having been a member of the US Military I find your accusations abhorrent. Being a Serving Law Enforcement Officer I find your follow up accusations slanderous and uninformed.

 

[Corocotta]

Your standard insult tactic right Chico. Someone doesn't agree with you and you insult their intelligence. My comprehension of the English Language is very good. You were caught in a double standard statement and now you look for a way out thru insults. Nice.

Lets see you have managed to accuse the entire United States Armed Forces of torture and now United States Law Enforcement is your target of choice. Having been a member of the US Military I find your accusations abhorrent. Being a Serving Law Enforcement Officer I find your follow up accusations slanderous and uninformed.

I did not insult you, if you read my messeges again you will find that I was talking about extinguing a terrorist organization(ETA) not a the vasques, all the people that was in this topic understood it, it seems that you are the only one...if you do not understand it, well.... :shock:
i did not say that all US army uses torture, I said that is happening in Irak and Guantanamo, that´s it.

 

[03USMC]

Charge & 03: your compresion of written english is pretty bad.

[/quote]



Oh I found that quite clear. And Understandable. Even for my limited skills.