V-22 Debate Continues Despite Deployment Decision




 
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May 1st, 2007  
Team Infidel
 
 

Topic: V-22 Debate Continues Despite Deployment Decision


Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
May 1, 2007

Even as the U.S. Marines prepare to deploy the first MV-22 squadron to Iraq in the coming months, defense analysts are still debating whether the tilt-rotor aircraft is the technological leap the service says it is.
An even those who applaud the Marines' deployment decision remain uncertain about some of the production expectations for the Osprey. Cost and especially capability are pillars that buttress the Marines' support for the V-22. The service says the Ospreys will save it money it will no longer have to spend on the upkeep of its aging helicopter fleet.
And the Ospreys will enable the Marines to do the kind of missions they can do now, and do them more safely and efficiently, they say.
Those comparisons have invited criticism.
"Critics argue that the V-22's performance should be compared to contemporary aircraft (such as the EH-101), not one that is 30 years old," reports Congressional Research Service military aviation analyst Christopher Bolkcom in his March briefing on the Osprey. "When compared to contemporary helicopters, critics argue, the V-22's capabilities don't appear nearly as impressive."
Other analysts, such as the Teal Group, say the V-22 has proven itself and the debate needs to move on.
"Teal believes in the technical side of this program," the analyst reported in its April briefing released this week. "Or, at least, we don't have the full information needed to doubt it."
For the Teal Group, the question is money.
"The only serious remaining questions concern the budget," the April report says. "New programs, especially expensive ones, face a difficult budget future. "It does not help that Osprey unit costs have hit 70 something million; that's a great source of cash and political notoriety," the report says.
Besides, the report says, the aircraft is already in production and 200 Ospreys, MV-22s, is a good minimum, the Teal Group argues. As for the 360 the Marines want, the Teal Group gives the service a 3-1 shot.
"There is still talk of a multiyear procurement contract," the Teal Group says. "We think it has a very good chance. Plus-ups might continue for another year or two also."
Special Operations Command will be good for another 50-plus aircraft, too, the Teal Group says. "The Navy could get 40 MV-22s for support and rescue (it no longer wants HV-22s), although the service is focusing its requirements around the MH-60R/S and E-2 for now, and doesn't plan to make a V-22 decision until 2010 or beyond," the report says.
The idea of the Air Force getting some combat SAR Ospreys to replace its HH-60G fleet looks dormant, replaced by the difficult CSAR-X program and the problematic HH-47 decision. But if the CV-22 matures as planned, they could easily take away some of that mission, the report says.
--Michael Fabey
May 1st, 2007  
PJ24
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Infidel
The idea of the Air Force getting some combat SAR Ospreys to replace its HH-60G fleet looks dormant, replaced by the difficult CSAR-X program and the problematic HH-47 decision. But if the CV-22 matures as planned, they could easily take away some of that mission, the report says.
--Michael Fabey
We were never seriously looking at the -22 for CSAR, it's the wrong bird for the job and could not possibly (even if it wasn't a piece of crap) perform to the standards we require.

It's not a CSAR bird, anyone that's been in the down-wash can tell you that.
May 2nd, 2007  
Damien435
 
 
Don't know exactly what CSAR stands for, but my guess is it has something to do with exiting the aircraft in hover, what do they call that... whatever it is they were trying to do in Black Hawk Down when the guys missed the rope. I thought that was almost impossible because of the configuration of the two props and the extreme about of down-wash as PJ called it. My opinion of the Osprey is that it would be best used in a situation that required traveling long distances and then setting down in a small landing area. Even though the Corps swears this thing is the future and that all glitches have been fixed I still don't believe it is ready for operational use, it's abilities fell well short of expectations and while it can do the job of a traditional aircraft or helicopter, it does so with a severe drop in performance in both areas.
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May 2nd, 2007  
Gator
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
Don't know exactly what CSAR stands for
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...ssary&term=723

My guess would be
1 combat search and rescue
May 2nd, 2007  
mmarsh
 
 
As opposed to SAR? Is there a difference? SAR within Hostile Zone perhaps? Just a guess.

Getting back to the V-22. How safe are those things. I remember one forum member saying he would never get on the damn thing.

Are the safety issues fixed? Or is it still in a Grey subject matter?. I have to wonder about the gears in the tilt rotor getting gummed up by all the sand in Iraq. Remember when it uses the tilt it usually does so at low altitude for landings. Any failure at that time could be fatal.
May 2nd, 2007  
Damien435
 
 
mmarsh, last semester I had to write a paper in composition and and I was considering two topics, William Wallace and the V-22 Osprey, both would be a fact vs. fiction sort of thing. What I found when I was researching both topics prior to choosing one (ended up going with William Wallace) was what the main causes of most early Osprey crashes were operator error. Descending too rapidly with too close of a proximity to other Ospreys caused destabilization and also caused one instance where an Osprey flipped over and hit the ground upside down because of these problems. While it has supposedly been fixed, tougher regulations concerning safe operation of the Osprey that is, I still am of the rather unprofessional opinion that the Marines would do better sticking with that they have right now, but if what my sources were saying was true, that operator error not mechanical failures led to the highly publicized crashes of the Osprey, then I wish the Corps. good luck with this thing.
May 3rd, 2007  
PJ24
 
 
Quote:
Don't know exactly what CSAR stands for, but my guess is it has something to do with exiting the aircraft in hover, what do they call that... whatever it is they were trying to do in Black Hawk Down when the guys missed the rope.
CSAR stands for Combat Search and Rescue. As for what you sall in BHD, that was called fast roping, it's just one of many techniques for AIE (Alternate insertion extraction).

There are of course a lot more reason why the Osprey doesn't fit the CSAR bill, but this is a main one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
As opposed to SAR? Is there a difference? SAR within Hostile Zone perhaps? Just a guess.
Sort of, yeah. The basic premise is the same, recover your personnel/random civilian. SAR is what you saw on the TV after Katrina, or what you hear about on the news when guys get lost on Mt. Hood. Hurricane/storm rescues at sea. We have both the CSAR and SAR mission and the Osprey isn't good for either

Getting back to the V-22. How safe are those things. I remember one forum member saying he would never get on the damn thing.[/quote]

You'd have to get on one to truly know how much they suck.

Quote:
Are the safety issues fixed? Or is it still in a Grey subject matter?. I have to wonder about the gears in the tilt rotor getting gummed up by all the sand in Iraq. Remember when it uses the tilt it usually does so at low altitude for landings. Any failure at that time could be fatal.
Still some bugs left, but nothing that is keeping it grounded.
May 3rd, 2007  
phoenix80
 
 
Is it not operational, already?
May 3rd, 2007  
mmarsh
 
 
PJ24

Could you elaborate? Whats wrong with them?
May 5th, 2007  
bulldogg
 
 
On an open forum, readable by all and sundry around the globe you want someone to delineate the weaknesses and shortcomings of an aircraft about to be used in a hostile environment?

Let's take a moment to reflect on the implications for those who will be riding inside one over the sandbox in the very near future... why not throw up a schematic with little red circle thingys showing where to aim? Might save some time and bandwidth.
 


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