USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense" - Page 9




 
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July 3rd, 2009  
George
 
And the responce to the Pueblo was....
July 27th, 2009  
GreatestAlive
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Not necessarily, the outcome could have been arranged very quickly after this all went pear shaped.

As for the US government being complicit in a cover up afterwards, I have no difficulty in believing that whatsoever. Plenty of governments, including that of Australia, have been willing to overlook the deaths of their servicemen to achieve the outcome that they desired. As they say, "In the interests of National security" or "In the interests of the greater good".

As for the Sixth Fleet not reacting immediately, I feel that they were there although not on a war footing nor expecting or prepared for this action especially when it became known that it was initiated by their supposed Allies. This would have led to an initial belief that it was a Blue on Blue error, and by the time that it became apparent that it was more than that the delays had resulted in a state of ultimate confusion between all sides. One does not normally expect to be turned upon, by one's allies. At the same time no doubt the government would have been in touch with the Israelis and because of this the sixth fleet were kept waiting for orders while the US/Israeli negotiations were going on, as everyone still would have been thinking this was some sort of mistake.

Even once orders would have been issued, it is surprising how long it takes to bring a ship to war readiness and mount a retaliatory attack. Everything would have had to be checked and rechecked in an attempt not to further cause a massive f*ckup. This would have given time for a "diplomatic" solution to have been reached.

Confusion would have been the order of the day.


The US government did look the other way. As for help not coming to the ship, pilots were waiting for the order to go attack the Israeli attackers, but they were told to stand down.
July 27th, 2009  
GreatestAlive
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
For those who do not know about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty here is a link.

Has Israel ever apologized to the US for their unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty? An attack clearly intended to sink an un-armed American ship in international waters. Why have both governments gone to such lengths to cover up the incident? What reason could Israel possibly have for attacking a ship clearly flying the colors of Israel's biggest and most supportive ally?

Sherman, you are the only Israeli I know on this forum, what, if anything, does Israel teach it's students about this incident? Never once was it discussed in any of my history classes all through high school.


The USS Liberty was a "Spy" ship, sent there to "listen" in on Israeli and Egyptian communications.
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July 27th, 2009  
mmarsh
 
 
Correction: Not a spy ship, a Intelligence gathering ship. They are not the same. A intelligence ship makes no attempt to disguise what its role is. A spy ship like the ones North Korea uses disguise themselves as something else like a decriped fishing trawler.

And the USS Libery was in international waters which means it had every legal right to do what it was doing.
July 28th, 2009  
GreatestAlive
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
Correction: Not a spy ship, a Intelligence gathering ship. They are not the same. A intelligence ship makes no attempt to disguise what its role is. A spy ship like the ones North Korea uses disguise themselves as something else like a decriped fishing trawler.

And the USS Libery was in international waters which means it had every legal right to do what it was doing.

Whatever you want to call it, its still did something that obviously the Israelis didnt want them to do and made sure they didnt have a chance to do it. Just to give a good debate, you call and Intelligence Gatherer a Spy.
October 13th, 2009  
greg2k
 
 

Topic: USS Liberty


USS Liberty was intelligenсe gathering ship acting as a SPY,because the mission and activity of this ship was a military secret and not known not only to Israel or Egypt but even to many in american Navy.National security Agency (NSA) prepared this ship and acted on their own.What the ship was actually doing was listening and collecting information on egyptian and russian communication lines.USA were very concern about safety of american oil installations in the Middle East and possible russian involvment in the war of 1967.Russia was an ally of Egypt at the time and there were russian instructors in Egypt,including pilots who managed a dozen or so heavy TU bomber planes stationed on egyptian territory,and that what USA was afraid of.On the USS Liberty itself there were translators of arabic and russian languages,but there were no hebrew language translators.The route of the ship was to be close to the egyptian territory,stay in international waters,monitor and collect all available communications and do not get in any contacts with anybody whatsoever.It is important to say that though USS Liberty contained advanced gathering equipment,still the radius of getting information from was limited due to the nature of radio communication waves.
What the US Navy Court of Inquiry was trying to establish was:
1.Did israelis know that the ship they were attacking was american.
2.And if they knew was the attack intentional and pre-planed.

On both of this points Navy Court failed to answer positively.Court did not find any reason to blame Israel for intentional attack.There were a dozen other investigations on this issue in USA and Israel with same unclear results.Israel apologyzed to USA for the attack and paid compensation for damages to the US Government and sailors.
October 14th, 2009  
captiva303
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg2k
USS Liberty was intelligenсe gathering ship acting as a SPY,because the mission and activity of this ship was a military secret and not known not only to Israel or Egypt but even to many in american Navy.National security Agency (NSA) prepared this ship and acted on their own.What the ship was actually doing was listening and collecting information on egyptian and russian communication lines.USA were very concern about safety of american oil installations in the Middle East and possible russian involvment in the war of 1967.Russia was an ally of Egypt at the time and there were russian instructors in Egypt,including pilots who managed a dozen or so heavy TU bomber planes stationed on egyptian territory,and that what USA was afraid of.On the USS Liberty itself there were translators of arabic and russian languages,but there were no hebrew language translators.The route of the ship was to be close to the egyptian territory,stay in international waters,monitor and collect all available communications and do not get in any contacts with anybody whatsoever.It is important to say that though USS Liberty contained advanced gathering equipment,still the radius of getting information from was limited due to the nature of radio communication waves.
What the US Navy Court of Inquiry was trying to establish was:
1.Did israelis know that the ship they were attacking was american.
2.And if they knew was the attack intentional and pre-planed.

On both of this points Navy Court failed to answer positively.Court did not find any reason to blame Israel for intentional attack.There were a dozen other investigations on this issue in USA and Israel with same unclear results.Israel apologyzed to USA for the attack and paid compensation for damages to the US Government and sailors.
1. yes they knew the ship was American they strafed it if the pilots couldn't see an American flag on it they shouldn't of been flying
2 if it was per planned that could be debatable there are many credible theories could explain hwy the Israelis would of attacked possibly to draw the americans into the war (couldn't see why they would of wanted to) or maybe the isrealis thought the Americans may hear something the wouldn't want them to hear
October 15th, 2009  
greg2k
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by captiva303
1. yes they knew the ship was American they strafed it if the pilots couldn't see an American flag on it they shouldn't of been flying
2 if it was per planned that could be debatable there are many credible theories could explain hwy the Israelis would of attacked possibly to draw the americans into the war (couldn't see why they would of wanted to) or maybe the isrealis thought the Americans may hear something the wouldn't want them to hear
1.You are saying israelis knew the ship they attacked was american.So you are saying they knew identity of the ship.Is it your assumption only ,or you have something to support your believe? If you have something in support bring it here.Now about flag on the USS Liberty.Lets say there was a flag on the ship. Can it be a situation the pilot just did not see it because of the small size or maybe because there was no wind to make the flag be full blown and visibile.It is possible.So if israeli pilot overlooked the flag on the ship it makes the pilot partially responsible right, and we can say it was an error on the part of the pilot.But this possibility does not make the case intentional in any way,and that what Naval Court of Inquiry could not find,they did not find intent.And if we calls it an error in the time of war, is it not true,that Israel was the first side,who aknowledge of this error and apologyzied?

2.You are saying there are many theories why Israel attacked the USS Liberty.If Israel wanted to draw USA into the war of 1967,what Israel could expect? As I said before,Soviet Union was ally of Egypt,so Israel by drawing USA into the war could expect the war with Soviet Union.You yourself said you cannot find ligic in this scenario.On another hand if Israel suspected the ship was interfiring in their affairs and collecting sensitive information why simply not to tell USA to remove the ship from the area or as a last resort to sink it and bury all the evidence.Israel could do it long before, when USS Liberty was near Port Said for example.Why Israel was waiting USS Liberty to approach very close to occupied Sinai near El Arish? Isn't it clear that if Israel was planning the attack on USS Liberty for quite period of time,they would create a better attacking force. But what happened in reality, Israel rerouted four of their planes from their missions at Suez Canal not equiped with antiship weapons.This provides more feeling that attack on USS Liberty was not planed in advance.
October 16th, 2009  
captiva303
 
 
have you read this thread completely?
it should answer most of you questions
any way this is declassified nsa tapes transcripts of interviews with the liberty's crew which largely contradicts the official story

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa10.pdf

the ship was also was in motion therefore the flag would be visble to the pilots and the attacking Israeli surface vessels

the attack may of had something to do with alleged Israeli atrocities
October 16th, 2009  
greg2k
 
 
1.http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/
Document 10: William D. Gerhard and Henry W. Millington, National Security Agency, Attack on a SIGINT Collector, the USS Liberty, 1981. Top Secret Umbra
One of the most controversial events in the history of U.S.-Israeli relations was the attack by Israeli aircraft, during the midst of the Six-Day War of June 1967, on the USS Liberty, a ship assigned to gather signals intelligence on behalf of the National Security Agency. The attack left thirty-four Americans dead and 171 wounded.
In additional to internal studies conducted by both countries there have been numerous books, portions of books, and articles that have sought to review the events and assess blame. The most controversial issue has been whether Israel knowingly attacked a ship it knew to belong to the U.S., which was cruising in international waters off the Sinai Peninsula, to prevent it from monitoring Israeli actions in the midst of the war. Authors have reached diametrically opposite conclusions on this issue. (Note 8)
This extensive report, written by a former head of the NSA element that produced studies of SIGINT crisis situations and the former head of the NSA library, examines the political-military background, consideration's leading to the ship's deployment, deployment to the Mediterranean, the attack, Israel's explanation, recovery and initial assessment, reviews of the incident, and "a final look." In their conclusion, the authors deal with the issues of possible Israeli foreknowledge of the ship's nationality and possible Israeli motivations for an attack. They report that a CIA assessment prepared within week of the attack, drawing heavily on communications intercepts, concluded (p. 64) that Israeli forces had not deliberately attacked a ship they knew to be American. 2.The ship just to be in motion not always bring the flag in full view.It should be enough combine force from the wind and the moving ship to make the flag wave in the air and be visible.The answer to the question was the flag visible or not could come only from one side,israeli side and they provided audio recordings between pilots and air base.
1345 1145 0745
MTB Division 914 ordered to go in and identify target. [IDF Navy HQ War Log.] Two Mirage
IIICJs, Kursa Flight, on combat air patrol near the Suez Canal and due to return to base, report
turning to a northern direction. [Israeli Air Force audio tapes.]
1350 1150 0750
MTB Division 914 reports target at 17 miles, speed 28 knots. Division requests air. Aircraft are
dispatched. Division told to tune to air frequencies. [IDF Navy HQ War Log.] Kursa Flight is to
be vectored towards the target’s reported position with instructions: “If it's a warship, then blast
it.” [IAF audio tapes.]
1354 1154 0754
Kursa Flight reports sighting the target “Affirmative, it looks longer by eyesight.” [IAF audio
tapes.]
1356 1156 0756
Both Kursa Flight and T-203 ask each other if they can identify the target. Kursa reports “I can't
identify it but in any case it's a military ship.” and “Its with one mast and one smokestack.” Royal
Flight, a pair of Super-Mystres armed with napalm canisters and already airborne, is diverted
towards this target from its assigned mission in the Sinai. [IAF audio tapes.]
1400 1200 0800
Air attack commenced. Liberty reported her position as 31-23N, 33-25E [US Naval Court of
Inquiry/Document 87 of Exhibit 48: DTG 081235Z June 1967, USS Saratoga to
CINCUSNAVEUR.] The generally accepted time of the initial attack is 1400 Sinai time.
1402 1202 0802
Royal Flight is given permission to attack following a brief delay. [IAF audio tapes.]
1404 1204 0804
Kursa Flight leaves Liberty. Royal Flight attacks Liberty.[IAF audio tapes.]
1409 1209 0809
IAF HQ requests that further effort be made to identify the ship. [IAF audio tapes.]
1411 1211 0811
MTB Division is advised that the planes are on their final run and now the boats are to attack.
[IDF History Department/MTB Division 914 War Log.] Royal Flight reports:
Homeland from Royal, do you read me? Pay attention, this ships markings are Charlie
Tango Romeo 5. Pay attention, Homeland, Charlie Tango Romeo 5. There is no flag on
her!”
[IAF audio tapes.]
1412 1212 0812
IAF senior air controller Colonel Kislev orders Royal Flight to "leave her." The air attack is over.
MTB Division 914 reports it sees aircraft have left. [IAF audio tapes; Navy HQ War Log.] The
IDF History at p. 15 indicates the planes left the area at 1416.
1413 1213 0813
IAF HQ reports two helicopters are going to be sent out to the ship. [IAF audio tapes.]
1414 1214 0814
Aircraft reports seeing “P 30" on ship. MTB range 5 to 6 miles. MTB Div going in. Air Force
reports ship marked “C T R 5.” [IDF Navy HQ War Log.] Royal Flight Leader reported this
information to IAF HQ prior to 1412. [IAF audio tapes.] It apparently is not relayed to and
logged by the Navy until another two or three minutes later.

1415 1215 0815
MTB Division 914 records aircraft have departed. [MTB Division War Log.]