USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense"

[Britney]

Yes they did apologise for it, but to be fair to the Israelis we told them we had no ships in the area. To them it was a enemy cargo ship.

 

[senojekips]

Yes they did apologise for it, but to be fair to the Israelis we told them we had no ships in the area. To them it was a enemy cargo ship.

That was because the Liberty was in International waters and had no obligation whatsoever to declare it's presence. Even if it were Egyptian, it still would have had every right to be there.

You should read the story.

 

[George]

Even if it were Egyptian, it still would have had every right to be there.

Any Egyptian ship in Int. waters would be fair game.

 

[Britney]

That was because the Liberty was in International waters and had no obligation whatsoever to declare it's presence. Even if it were Egyptian, it still would have had every right to be there.

You should read the story.

I read it years ago, our government told the Israelis we had no ships in the area. That was obviously mistaken information witch led to them attacking what they thought was a enemy vessel.

I'm not going to jump on the anti-Israeli band wagon like a lot of others are, it was a mistake on both sides- one fo the US not correctly informing the Israelis, and two for the Israelis for not double checking it's target.

The Israelis are our close ally, it makes little sense to think they deliberately and knowingly attacked a US vessel.

I dont think anyone is claiming we had a obligation to disclose it's presence, but its the fact we told them we had no ships in the area that maters.

Israel and Egypt where at war, it would be expected for Israel to attack any Egyptian vessel, just because it was in international waters doesn't make it a invalid target.

Yes im sore this thing happened, but you cant claim the victim when we told them we had no vessels in the area. It was not done to 'attack' us shipping, and i think thats abundantly clear when they ceased fire when they found out it was a US ship. If they thought it was a Egyptian ship they would have sent it to the bottom.

 

[senojekips]

Obviously you haven't read very much about it then.

As for it making sense, can you tell me one act of military aggression that has made sense?

The truth looks more like the Israelis thought that they could sink the Liberty before they could identify their attackers.

just because it was in international waters doesn't make it a invalid target.

Would you care to explain how you have arrived at this amazing conclusion, because 99.9% of seagoing nations would strongly disagree with you.

Vessels in International waters must be identified before you attack them, The Liberty was flying the US flag and looked nothing like the vessel that the Israelis claimed it to be.

Or do you think that the Israeli Airforce pilots left their white canes at home that day.

 

[Polie]

Just because a ship if flying the colors of a friendly nation does not mean it is from a friendly nation. One should research old naval tactics. It used to be common practice to fly the colors of nation you where attacking and/or trying to smuggle cargo into/out of.

 

[senojekips]

Just because a ship if flying the colors of a friendly nation does not mean it is from a friendly nation. One should research old naval tactics. It used to be common practice to fly the colors of nation you where attacking and/or trying to smuggle cargo into/out of.

You would be better served if you should learn something of international law before making stupid comments. If any vessel is flying the flag of a non combatant nation, it is up to the attacker to verify the vessel's nationality BEFORE opening fire.

The Liberty was three times as large as the El Quseir
Liberty had a straight stack on top of her superstructure the El Quseir's was raked and behind the Centrecastle.

Would you mistake a Harley Davidson for a Vespa scooter?

Maybe that scenario is OK for Pirates of the Caribbean in 1667, but not in the Mediterranean in 1967. Even back then, it was frowned upon and was an offence for which you could be hung and drawn.

 

[Polie]

I wasent condoning the act, just stating that they may have thought it was a cargo ship that was trying to pass off as a US vessel, that's all. The fact of the matter is that no one will truly ever know what was going through the minds of the crews firing on the USS Liberty. The 'official' reports can say anything, but what was actually going through there mind could have been different. Don't get me wrong, I am definitely a for US and Israeli alliance, it just sometimes you need to step back and wonder what was really going on.

I dont know why you are trying to attack me for pointing that out. I would think it would better serve you to either try and add something else to the conversation or add nothing at all since you had a useless post. Also, I have never see Pirates of the Caribbean, why because its not my type of movie.

 

[senojekips]

Well, your statement was neither informed nor factual. If you make a statement here, it is expected that you base it on facts. The idea being to find the most obvious truth, not to make excuses.

How could trained pilots and Naval officers mistake these two vessels, shown above at approximately the same scale.

Any Egyptian ship in Int. waters would be fair game.

And since when did the USS Liberty become Egyptian? Or shrink to one third of its size.

 

[greg2k]

USS Liberty did not fly any flag.It could not fly a flag because the mission was secret and in United Nation USA openly declared they dont have any american ships in the are of conflict.How could United States say one thing and do another? That's why when USA realized the danger to the ship they were trying to send 6 secret messages to the Liberty.And what the messages were about? The mesages ordering the ship to stay away at least 100 miles from the coast, (you see not to rise the flag on the ship,but stay away from the area of war )
And were is the original smaller flag which sailors claimed to be shut down by israeli jets during first attack? Were is it? Nobody can find it? Sure,because it was never on the ship, because it does not holes on it,that's why nobody can find it. At the National
Cryptologic Museum at NSA Ft Meade MD there is only Holiday flag,which sailors raised later on. That's why leading israeli pilot radio reported to the base he cannot identify the ship but in any case it is military ship.If israelis knew in advance that the ship was american why pilot needed to say all these things to the base,including how many mast and smokestackes it had?
All israeli pilots knew the identification of their own ships,because all Israeli ships, military and civl, had a special marking on the deck that israeli pilots could easily identify them when flying above.Obviously USS liberty did not have such markings, and attack took place.

 

[MontyB]

Ok lets accept your argument that there was no flag, how then do you justify attacking an unidentified ship in international waters?

I agree with Spike that the Israeli pilots would have to been using guide dogs not to see the difference between the Liberty and the Egyptian freighter they claimed it was but this would not have been an issue as your own statement says that the pilots could not identify the ship.

Essentially you have narrowed down the only two options as:
1) A deliberate act of war.
2) An incredibly reckless criminal act against international law.

 

[greg2k]

Was the attack deliberate or not we discussed already in many previous postings. US Navy court did not find direct evidence to incriminate Israel in this.If sailors have new evidence they can present it to any independent court,obviously they have nothing new.
Israeli pilots are not trained to indentify all ships just by looking at them,they dont have pictures of ships in their cabins.Ships usually are identified by Navy officers looking in catalogs of the ships,it has pictures.Israeli pilots were not specially trained Navy pilots,they were regular mission pilots, rerouted from their mission from the Suez Canal.When they see
the ship,and usually from the distance (because they cannot fly too close to potentially dangerous objects) they see different picture ,they cannot compare pictures of two ships,like someone is putting them together side by side in internet.
The option we can discuss is the law (rightes and reponsibilities) of neutral ships in international waters during the military conflicts.If someone present this Law here this would be interesting point to discuss.

 

[senojekips]

USS Liberty did not fly any flag.It could not fly a flag because the mission was secret

Why would they not fly a flag, the vessel has a pennant number painted on the bow in letters 3 metres tall. Much larger than the flag. That would be as stupid as a robber wearing a ski mask with his name and address embroidered on it.

I can see them clearly in this photo taken only hours after the attack.

Here is an Israeli reconnaissance airplane that circled the ship about an hour before the attack. The pilot was heard reporting to HQ that he saw an American flag and men sunning themselves on deck. Source: http://www.ussliberty.com/gifs.htm

 

[greg2k]

This picture of a plane was many time discussed on internet,it is clear not even to the military exprert,this is a freight plane The Douglas DC-3 (also known as the Dakota, C-47 ) not a reconnassance plane.It is not clear when this picture was made,and also not clear if it was presented as evidence to the Naval Court of Inquiry.
There is nothing in the USS Liberty ship Log about any recorded israeli radio messages between pilots and israeli Headquarter.

 

[senojekips]

This picture of a plane was many time discussed on internet,it is clear not even to the military exprert,this is a freight plane not a reconnassance plane.It is not clear when this picture was made.
There is nothing in the ship Log about any recorded israeli radio messages between pilots and israeli Headquarter.

Sure,.... I have been going to sea all my life, and never been buzzed by a freight plane. Someone is telling lies here, and i don't see why the liberty's crew would have to especially since they were an Intelligence gathering vessel and heard the pilot reporting to the Israeli controllers. Messages that are not of strategic value would not be logged, They were not to know that the Israelis were going to stab them in the back.

Your cover up, has more holes than the Liberty's superstructure.

 

[MontyB]

The option we can discuss is the law (rightes and reponsibilities) of neutral ships in international waters during the military conflicts.If someone present this Law here this would be interesting point to discuss.

They are fairly clear, I would suggest looking up the Article 22 of the Geneva Convention on the High Seas (1958) that explains the rights and expectations of neutral ships in international waters.

 

[greg2k]

During 1967 war Israel used Fairchild C-119 Flying Box Car as recognassance plaines.Their configuration is very difficault to confuse with other planes. The Flying Box Car was mention several times in the USS Liberty ship Log.
Pictures of the Flying Box Car can be seen on:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/imag...379&sCurrentPic=c119_2.jpg&sCurrentDescriptor=

 

[senojekips]

This picture of a plane was many time discussed on internet,it is clear not even to the military exprert,this is a freight plane not a reconnassance plane.It is not clear when this picture was made.

So,... It doesn't matter whether it was a troop transport or a reconnaissance aircraft, the pilot still reported that the vessel was flying the US flag, it states quite clearly that the photo was taken approximately one hour before the attack. The aircraft circled the ship, so obviously they were checking it out, they just didn't happen to be flying past at an altitude of 3-400 feet. The pilot was heard reporting to HQ that he saw an American flag and men sunning themselves on deck.

There are too many unanswered questions, and nearly all of them are about the Israeli version of the events, nothing adds up.

 

[greg2k]

So,... It doesn't matter whether it was a troop transport or a reconnaissance aircraft, the pilot still reported that the vessel was flying the US flag, it states quite clearly that the photo was taken approximately one hour before the attack. The aircraft circled the ship, so obviously they were checking it out, they just didn't happen to be flying past at an altitude of 3-400 feet. The pilot was heard reporting to HQ that he saw an American flag and men sunning themselves on deck.

There are too many unanswered questions, and nearly all of them are about the Israeli version of the events, nothing adds up.

OK,lets say Liberty heard israeli pilot said he saw a flag,so why another israeli pilot one hour later was talking that he did not identify the ship? He was talking to a) the same Headquarter and people who already knew that the ship was american? In this case it does not make common sense. b) he was talking to ahother Headquarter and people who did not know that the ship was american? In this case israeli Headquarter did not know the identity of the ship Regardless of the situation on USS Liberty there were not a single hebrew translator which again is prooving of the lie about the recorded message.

 

[MontyB]

Doesnt this kind of disprove the theory that they had not identified the ship...

Israeli historian Tom Segev, who mentioned the cables in his recent book "1967," said other cables showed that Harman's source for the second cable was Arthur Goldberg, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.
The cables, which have been declassified by the Israelis, were obtained from the Israeli State Archive and translated from Hebrew by the Tribune.
Oliver Kirby, the NSA's deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack, confirmed the existence of NSA transcripts.
Asked whether he had personally read such transcripts, Kirby replied, "I sure did. I certainly did."
"They said, 'We've got him in the zero,'" Kirby recalled, "whatever that meant -- I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, 'Can you see the flag?' They said 'Yes, it's U.S, it's U.S.' They said it several times, so there wasn't any doubt in anybody's mind that they knew it."
Kirby, now 86 and retired in Texas, said the transcripts were "something that's bothered me all my life. I'm willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that we knew they knew."
One set of transcripts apparently survived in the archives of the U.S. Army's intelligence school, then located at Ft. Holabird in Maryland.

in terms of translators available...

Indeed, the declassified documents state that no recordings of the "actual attack" exist, raising questions about the source of the transcripts recalled by Forslund, Gotcher, Block, Porter, Lang and Kirby. The three recordings reflect what the NSA describes as "the aftermath" of the attack -- Israeli communications with two Israeli helicopters dispatched to rescue any survivors who may have jumped into the water.
Two of the recordings were made by Michael Prostinak, a Hebrew linguist aboard a U.S. Navy EC-121, a lumbering propeller-driven aircraft specially equipped to gather electronic intelligence.
But Prostinak said he was certain that more than three recordings were made that day.
"I can tell you there were more tapes than just the three on the Internet," he said. "No doubt in my mind, more than three tapes."
At least one of the missing tapes, Prostinak said, captured Israeli communications "in which people were not just tranquil or taking care of business as normal. We knew that something was being attacked," Prostinak said. "Everyone we were listening to was excited. You know, it was an actual attack. And during the attack was when mention of the American flag was made."
Prostinak acknowledged that his Hebrew was not good enough to understand every word being said, but that after the mention of the American flag "the attack did continue. We copied [recorded] it until we got completely out of range. We got a great deal of it."
Charles Tiffany, the plane's navigator, remembers hearing Prostinak on the plane's intercom system, shouting, "I got something crazy on UHF," the radio frequency band used by the Israeli Air Force.
"I'll never forget it to this day," said Tiffany, now a retired Florida lawyer. He also remembers hearing the plane's pilot ordering the NSA linguists to "start taping everything."
Prostinak said he and the others aboard the plane had been unaware of the Liberty's presence 15,000 feet below, but had concluded that the Israelis' target must be an American ship. "We knew that something was being attacked," Prostinak said.
After listening to the three recordings released by the NSA, Prostinak said it was clear from the sequence in which they were numbered that at least two tapes that had once existed were not there.
One tape, designated A1104/A-02, begins at 2:29 p.m. local time, just after the Liberty was hit by the torpedo. Prostinak said there was a preceding tape, A1104/A-01.
That tape likely would have recorded much of the attack, which began with the air assault at 1:56 p.m. Prostinak said a second tape, which preceded one beginning at 3:07 p.m., made by another linguist aboard the same plane, also appeared to be missing.
As soon as the EC-121 landed at its base in Athens, Prostinak said, all the tapes were rushed to an NSA facility at the Athens airport where Hebrew translators were standing by.

Just for good measure:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7009


Further to this...

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]In three declassified documents, recently released by the NSA (National Security Agency), information about one trained Hebrew linguist being aboard USS Liberty has come to light.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]The first document (questions_general_carrol.pdf[/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]) was originally TOP SECRET and entitled: "Questions by General Carrol, Director, DIA / Answers provided by G Group/P04 27 June 1967". Within the document, the following question and answer was given:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Question: [FONT=times new roman,serif]"Did Liberty have any Israeli linguists on board?"
[/FONT]Answer: [FONT=times new roman,serif]"NSG was not tasked to provide any Israeli linguists on the Liberty. Lack of linguists throughout the community was a factor in omitting Israeli tasking."[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]A handwritten note expanded the answer with the addition of the following: [FONT=times new roman,serif]"However, in the search for Arabic linguists, one individual (Navy enlisted man) was sent TDY [Temporary Duty] to the Liberty on the basis of a biography card listing him as Special Arabic (Hebrew). He is a Spanish linguist and had received 24 weeks Hebrew training at NSA 10 years ago. Someone confused Arabic with Special Arabic. Consequently the presence on board was by accident, not design."[/FONT][/FONT]
​

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]The second document (interview_r_hickman.pdf) is a transcript from an oral interview with NSA Hebrew linguist Richard Hickman, by NSA historians William Gerhard and R.D. Farley. On page three, Hickman states:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,serif]"The only Hebrew linguist that I know of, that was on there [USS Liberty] was Navy Chief Baker, and his knowledge of Hebrew was suspect because he had taken the language some years back and hadn't been working with it..."[/FONT][/FONT]
​

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]The third document (special_arabic_material.pdf) [/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]is a SECRET message, from USS Liberty Research Operations (USN-855), dated 05 June 67, to DIRNAVSECGRUEUR (Director of Naval Security Group Europe) and a redacted addressee. It contains the following:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,serif]"1. NO 'SPECIAL' ARABIC DICTIONARIES RECEIVED ON BOARD WHILE IN ROTA.
2. LIBERTY SLATED TO RDVU WITH SIXTHFLT FLAGSHIP 6 OR 7 JUNE. IF DICTIONARY AND ADDITIONAL TECH MATERIAL COULD BE FORWARDED TO [REDACTED] AT TIME OF RDVU WOULD BE APPRECIATED."[/FONT][/FONT]
​

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]From these three documents, it is clear that a trained Hebrew linguist named Baker* was aboard USS Liberty; although, his training was ten years old and he had been serving as a Spanish linguist. Additionally, there was concern, by somebody in USS Liberty's Research Operations department, about the lack of Hebrew language dictionaries aboard USS Liberty.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]None of this evidence supports USS Liberty was tasked with performing a SIGINT (signal intelligence) mission involving Israel's military assets or operations; but it does refute claims of there being no Hebrew linguists aboard USS Liberty and there being no interest in SIGINT involving Hebrew language sources. Clearly, a request for Hebrew language dictionaries shows interest or concern about possible usage -- likely by somebody with training in the Hebrew language.

http://usslibertyinquiry.googlepages.com/essay18
[/FONT]