USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense" - Page 29




 
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September 22nd, 2014  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remington 1858
I am certainly aware that Israel and The U.S. have often had a divergence of objectives. But, it is important to remember that Israel offers a Western- oriented base right in the middle of a strategically vital area, especially now that our enemies and their enemies are one in the same.. Furthermore, the Israelis have no compunction about the use of swift, violent and illegal methods in dealing with threats, something Western politicians pee their pants about. Israel is going to be of ever increasing importance in Global War Against Terror Phase 2, ( GWOT II). You can believe that they will take every advantage of this strategic position, but we will need them to find, fix and f--- the jihadists.
Israel isn't the solution, its part of the problem. If you ask people of the Middle East why they don't like Israel they will tell you its because of its poor treatment of the Palestinians and its one of the reasons people join groups like IJ or Hamas. Hamas's argument with Israeli is over land not religion. Jews have been living in that area for centuries -side by side with the Muslims, even inter-marrying this is not a secular problem its a political one. The problem is that this right-wing government in Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to illegally build settlements. It has been long said that if Israel were to settle its land dispute with the Palestinians all the Islamic terrorist groups would vanish overnight. Israel just doesn't want to hand back the land it stole.

Nor do I think Israel is that good a friend to the US in the past or even now. I grew up in NYC and trust me I know the mentality of many of these Ultra-right-wing Likud members that look at the US Government as that of a mindless peon utterly subservient to them.

There are far friendlier countries in the area than Israel. Jordan, Turkey, and possibly Egypt to name a few. Furthermore their proximity to Syria/Iraq makes them far more valuable as they have far more to lose than Israel does.
September 22nd, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
Israel isn't the solution, its part of the problem. If you ask people of the Middle East why they don't like Israel they will tell you its because of its poor treatment of the Palestinians and its one of the reasons people join groups like IJ or Hamas. Hamas's argument with Israeli is over land not religion. Jews have been living in that area for centuries -side by side with the Muslims, even inter-marrying this is not a secular problem its a political one.
I agree entirely but the only way Israel can keep this going is by making it religious which ensures they can roll out the anti-Semetism and Holocaust cards whenever they run into opposition.
The reality is that the problem is almost entirely Zionisms right wing supremacist doctrine.


Quote:
The problem is that this right-wing government in Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to illegally build settlements. It has been long said that if Israel were to settle its land dispute with the Palestinians all the Islamic terrorist groups would vanish overnight. Israel just doesn't want to hand back the land it stole.
As I have said in the past an equatable settlement with the Palestinians would go a long way to reducing the conflict in the entire region but it wont cause terrorist groups to vanish over night in fact the groups fighting Israel are only regarded terrorist groups due to political manipulation, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. are all elected groups and were elected in ballots that were confirmed as free and fair by international observers.

In fact very few if any of the worlds major terrorist groups are operating in the area or in the countries surrounding the area Syria being the exception, unfortunately 30-40 years ago a settlement may have ended a lot of terrorism now the region as a whole has been destabilised and the conflict has spread far beyond the Israel/Palestine borders.


Quote:
Nor do I think Israel is that good a friend to the US in the past or even now. I grew up in NYC and trust me I know the mentality of many of these Ultra-right-wing Likud members that look at the US Government as that of a mindless peon utterly subservient to them.

There are far friendlier countries in the area than Israel. Jordan, Turkey, and possibly Egypt to name a few. Furthermore their proximity to Syria/Iraq makes them far more valuable as they have far more to lose than Israel does.
Agreed although Turkey may be an issue due to US support for the Kurds especially if they start pushing for an independent state.
September 22nd, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
Israel isn't the solution, its part of the problem. If you ask people of the Middle East why they don't like Israel they will tell you its because of its poor treatment of the Palestinians and its one of the reasons people join groups like IJ or Hamas. Hamas's argument with Israeli is over land not religion. Jews have been living in that area for centuries -side by side with the Muslims, even inter-marrying this is not a secular problem its a political one. The problem is that this right-wing government in Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to illegally build settlements. It has been long said that if Israel were to settle its land dispute with the Palestinians all the Islamic terrorist groups would vanish overnight. Israel just doesn't want to hand back the land it stole.

Nor do I think Israel is that good a friend to the US in the past or even now. I grew up in NYC and trust me I know the mentality of many of these Ultra-right-wing Likud members that look at the US Government as that of a mindless peon utterly subservient to them.

There are far friendlier countries in the area than Israel. Jordan, Turkey, and possibly Egypt to name a few. Furthermore their proximity to Syria/Iraq makes them far more valuable as they have far more to lose than Israel does.
But as far as the US is concerned are they more stable countries? Take Egypt just a short while back the army had to take charge to remove the radical Muslim Brotherhood from power who had started killing innocents. Now their is peace but it's a military dictatorship. Turkey has questioned some of the US - Nato bases on it's soil. Jordon is loyal but is not strong militarily. Israel is intertwined with the US for one reason or another, we've played the part of big brother and for reason beyond me we covered up that Liberty innocent.
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September 26th, 2014  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Take Egypt just a short while back the army had to take charge to remove the radical Muslim Brotherhood from power who had started killing innocents. Now their is peace but it's a military dictatorship.
It's not really a military dictatorship, the population has asked the military to intervene when Morsi refused to step down claiming to be under the protection of democracy and whatever. And what? The military made a coup d'etat? So what? They made a coup d'etat against the British puppet called king, right? In both these situations the military received wide general support. The current military government is facing a lot of challenges like a crumbling economy, terrorism...etc. And for as far as I can see, they're taking action towards the economy and the Suez canal is being improved and as far as terrorism they're fighting the hydra. And all of that is being done in less than a year.
September 26th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
It's not really a military dictatorship, the population has asked the military to intervene when Morsi refused to step down claiming to be under the protection of democracy and whatever. And what? The military made a coup d'etat? So what? They made a coup d'etat against the British puppet called king, right? In both these situations the military received wide general support. The current military government is facing a lot of challenges like a crumbling economy, terrorism...etc. And for as far as I can see, they're taking action towards the economy and the Suez canal is being improved and as far as terrorism they're fighting the hydra. And all of that is being done in less than a year.
Perhaps dictatorships is to strong a word, however power is in the hands of a few. Many people just wanted an end to the madness resulting from the leadership by the elected Brotherhood. I agree on their accomplishments, no argument there.
October 8th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Perhaps dictatorships is to strong a word, however power is in the hands of a few. Many people just wanted an end to the madness resulting from the leadership by the elected Brotherhood. I agree on their accomplishments, no argument there.

Power is in the hands of a few the world over, Egypt is no different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remington 1858
I'm quite sure that the attack was no mistake. Whether it was authorized at the highest levels of the Israeli government or whether it was a rogue officer who ordered it is not clear. At the time of the attack, there were massacres going on in the refugee camps and the Israelis were holding the perimeters of the camps while various Arab factions did the killing. The Israelis obviously didn't want their radio communications being monitored about that incident and radio monitoring was one of the Liberty's missions. One of my boyhood friends was on the ship and told me the whole story of the attack as he saw it.
I agree with this I can not see any instance where this attack could have been accidental between the initial fly past of the ship and the final actions hours had passed, the Liberty was flying its flag and in international waters, nor did it look anything like the ship that they claimed to be attacking.

I can accept that the initial identification of the ship may have been wrong but the ship was over flown multiple times before the attack I can not believe the second, third or fourth flyby also misidentified a ship flying a giant American flag as an Egyptian ship one third the size of what they were looking at.

But lets assume that at that stage Israeli maritime pilots were hired for their myopic characteristics this does not explain the fighter flyby at 9am not identifying the ship either nor does it explain the failure to identify the ship during the initial attacks at 2pm (after 6 hours of surveillance) and I am somewhat surprised to learn that the Israeli navy took an hour and a half identify it from 500 meters.

One mistake, sure it can happen. Two mistakes unlikely but not outside the realms of possibility, three or more mistakes I suspect planned.
October 9th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
[QUOTE=MontyB;680414]Power is in the hands of a few the world over, Egypt is no different.



In the US we elect the president via the electoral college. Weather or not he does the peoples will we cannot control, but we can control who is the president. This is not the same for Egypt or much of the world over.
October 24th, 2014  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
In the US we elect the president via the electoral college. Weather or not he does the peoples will we cannot control, but we can control who is the president. This is not the same for Egypt or much of the world over.
Egyptians can control who's the president, I don't see how they're not. True, in the US you can't do much after a president has already been elected but don't you think it's better if a current president during elections did a lot of promises within a time frame and didn't meet them you can actually do something? That was the case in Egypt, Morsi promised a lot but achieved none and he was given 1 year so Egyptians can see actions on the ground. When the year was over, he experienced mass opposition that asked the military to intervene which ended in his overthrow. Sisi, the current president was asked way before the elections to join them and he was seen as the savior and after he became president already not in office for so long put actions on the ground while facing a lot of challenges.

I'm not denying that before the past 3 years the people didn't really have much of a choice yet, with the amount of knowledge that I have, history does remember them good to the point in which Mubarak took office.
October 24th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Egyptians can control who's the president, I don't see how they're not. True, in the US you can't do much after a president has already been elected but don't you think it's better if a current president during elections did a lot of promises within a time frame and didn't meet them you can actually do something? That was the case in Egypt, Morsi promised a lot but achieved none and he was given 1 year so Egyptians can see actions on the ground. When the year was over, he experienced mass opposition that asked the military to intervene which ended in his overthrow. Sisi, the current president was asked way before the elections to join them and he was seen as the savior and after he became president already not in office for so long put actions on the ground while facing a lot of challenges.

I'm not denying that before the past 3 years the people didn't really have much of a choice yet, with the amount of knowledge that I have, history does remember them good to the point in which Mubarak took office.
I think what most people believe is that in a democracy you don't call in the army to get rid of unwanted politicians you just don't elect them again.

As much as the case in Egypt may have been the will of the majority it was still counter to a true democratic process.
October 26th, 2014  
tetvet
 
As much as I try to make sense of Israel's attack on the Liberty I still cannot make sense of it , one attack maybe , things can get confused in war but several attacks no way .