US troops suspected of raping Iraq teenager: mayor - Page 3




 
--
 
July 10th, 2006  
Chief Bones
 
 

Topic: Sorrrrrrryyyyyyyy ....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
I have no faith in the ability of academics in this case. How can they possibly determine who will snap and who will not? Sure, they can give us mountains of "data" and countless studies. But, I am not convinced that they have even scratched the surface. The battlefield remains a tough environment to study. The human mind is even more difficult. The two together are just daunting.
I also have NO confidence in academia ... they live in their little ivory towers and have NO grasp of the real world. They believe that these theories that they have formulated are the be-all and the end-all and one size fits everyone.

SORRRRRRRYYYYYYYY - it's is nice to think that you can take the human psyche and wrap it in paper and tie it with a pretty ribbon and every answer is contained within it's interior. Just ain't so ... even the civilian world has many permutations that just don't fit the mold.

When you step onto the battlefield, you are stepping into a whole new world that bears little or no resemblance to the halls of academia. The little boxes and restrictions that are contained in the research papers (along with their results), just don't fit into the puzzle that is combat.

The pressures that affect the combat soldier range from the absolute pits of depression ... to the absolute high that is spurred on by fear. How any one can possibly say how a person will act under every possible combination is beyond me.

The human mind can NOT grasp the number of possible combinations, so there is absolutely NO WAY that any expert can tell how an individual is going to react in combat.
July 10th, 2006  
WarMachine
 
 
People can't prove 100% that atoms exists because they've never been seen in real life. It's all theories and you can't become angry over theories. I bet you if anything the psychological evaluations and combat data has improved the lives of people serving in the armed forces because understanding the stress soldiers go through can lead to figuring out what to do about it.

Of course you can't figure out what an individual is going though, but that' not the point. You have to study what the group is going through and adjust for that, it's completely pointless to work on one person at a time. Academics is never perfect, there was at one time a belief that race determined ability as being scientifically accepted, we have gone past that. It's all an improvement and as the old saying goes, you can't stop progress.
July 11th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachine
People can't prove 100% that atoms exists because they've never been seen in real life. It's all theories and you can't become angry over theories. I bet you if anything the psychological evaluations and combat data has improved the lives of people serving in the armed forces because understanding the stress soldiers go through can lead to figuring out what to do about it.

Of course you can't figure out what an individual is going though, but that' not the point. You have to study what the group is going through and adjust for that, it's completely pointless to work on one person at a time. Academics is never perfect, there was at one time a belief that race determined ability as being scientifically accepted, we have gone past that. It's all an improvement and as the old saying goes, you can't stop progress.
Things have improved. In WWI or WWII, soldiers exhibiting battle exhaustion or bizarre behaviour were imprisoned, sent to penal organizations or executed. Battle exhaustion was classified as cowardice. The non-German west even recognized the problem as some kind of mental illness during WWII. Hence Patton's slapping of an American soldier in Africa -- he didn't believe the "shrinks". The Germans just put their troops up against the wall. The number of German executions was incredibly high.

In terms of the US army, however, I am sure that battle exhaustion or fatigue is going to be an important factor by this point. Remember Mai Lai and Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_L._Haeberle
--
July 11th, 2006  
LeEnfield
 
 
The whole problem revolves around fighting an enemy that dresses in civilian clothes then after killing a few of the troops will discard their weapons and fade back into a civilian population again. Once this has happened to you a few times you are inclined to get a bit sh*tty about it and lash out at people you may considerer that are harbouring the terrorist. Oh yes we all know that it is not right, but before you comment on it just ask your self I have I been in that situation, and if have haven't then how can you comment on it.
July 11th, 2006  
Missileer
 
 
In his book, "Beyond The Band of Brothers", which Dick Winters wrote from his memoirs, he spoke of finding the "killers" in each platoon and rifle squad. He said that these were the men to whom cold blooded killing came easy in the heat of battle. Some men would crawl in a hole or run but these men would just start methodically killing. These men were always put in a position of leading patrols or skirmishes.

Now, these guys may have been classified as abnormal by today's psychiactric profession because they also took no prisoners unless a close watch was kept on them. But, as far as the brass was concerned, they were indispensable in the unit and most lived through the war. So, is this the best kind of soldier, a killer who gets the job done without even giving
death a second thought?
July 11th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
The whole problem revolves around fighting an enemy that dresses in civilian clothes then after killing a few of the troops will discard their weapons and fade back into a civilian population again. Once this has happened to you a few times you are inclined to get a bit sh*tty about it and lash out at people you may considerer that are harbouring the terrorist. Oh yes we all know that it is not right, but before you comment on it just ask your self I have I been in that situation, and if have haven't then how can you comment on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missileer
In his book, "Beyond The Band of Brothers", which Dick Winters wrote from his memoirs, he spoke of finding the "killers" in each platoon and rifle squad. He said that these were the men to whom cold blooded killing came easy in the heat of battle. Some men would crawl in a hole or run but these men would just start methodically killing. These men were always put in a position of leading patrols or skirmishes.

Now, these guys may have been classified as abnormal by today's psychiactric profession because they also took no prisoners unless a close watch was kept on them. But, as far as the brass was concerned, they were indispensable in the unit and most lived through the war. So, is this the best kind of soldier, a killer who gets the job done without even giving
death a second thought?
Both of these comments hit the problem right on the nose.

I would like to point out, however, that there might be a world of difference between shooting soldiers or guerillas or civilians and raping a kid. From what I understand, rape is a method of demonstrating power or some kind of vengeance.

I don't even know if war crimes are a product of battle exhaustion. I am inclined to think so. That is why I suggested some kind of vacation therapy. On the other hand, I do not know how long Americans are stationed in Iraq or the real nature of the fighting.

Does anyone else think there could be a coorelation between the crimes mentioned in this thread and battle exhaustion?
July 12th, 2006  
Chief Bones
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
Both of these comments hit the problem right on the nose.

I would like to point out, however, that there might be a world of difference between shooting soldiers or guerillas or civilians and raping a kid. From what I understand, rape is a method of demonstrating power or some kind of vengeance.

I don't even know if war crimes are a product of battle exhaustion. I am inclined to think so. That is why I suggested some kind of vacation therapy. On the other hand, I do not know how long Americans are stationed in Iraq or the real nature of the fighting.

Does anyone else think there could be a coorelation between the crimes mentioned in this thread and battle exhaustion?
I believe it would be an over simplification to blame this rape on battle exhaustion ... if this were the case then Vietnam would have been buried under stories of thousands of cases of rape of young Vietnamese girls ... all of us were constantly exhausted from almost continuous combat stress before that damn war was over with and it never happened. So - don't try to trivialize the charges against these individuals by excusing it as battlefield exhaustion ... that is so much bull. These individuals already had a predilection for this type of criminal activity.
July 12th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Bones
I believe it would be an over simplification to blame this rape on battle exhaustion ... if this were the case then Vietnam would have been buried under stories of thousands of cases of rape of young Vietnamese girls ... all of us were constantly exhausted from almost continuous combat stress before that damn war was over with and it never happened. So - don't try to trivialize the charges against these individuals by excusing it as battlefield exhaustion ... that is so much bull. These individuals already had a predilection for this type of criminal activity.


--My Lai burning

Sorry for the overtone of trivialization. None was meant. I am simply trying to understand the behaviour in terms of context. In any case, it is not possible to trivialize crimes of this nature. To argue that American troops are unlike other soldiers and do not rape is in any case incorrect and in itself white washing.

The problem is that these crimes are often trivialized. Stalin referred to wartime rape as "soldiers having a bit of fun". In reference to the mass-rape of over 3 million German women by the Red Army between 1945-1947 (and many more Polish, Hungarian, etc. women), historians have often used a tone that is even worse. Some historians use words like retribution or justice. I would rather explain the problem of rape (Congo, Rwanda, WWII, etc) in terms of war, because I cannot accept that hundreds of thousands or even millions of men are criminally predisposed to this sort of thing or commandos of justice. If I am wrong...OMG.

In terms of Vietnam, sorry if I have to burst your bubble. A few minutes of googling demonstrates that the incidents of rape were probably high. Like everyone else on this planet, you will want to see hard evidence in terms of documents and incidents recorded. The problem is that these assertions are speculative in nature. Why?

1. Rapes not reported: "In fact, very few American GIs were "nailed" for rape in Vietnam. Despite the fact that it is a crime according to international law, prohibited under the Geneva Convention and punishable by death or imprisonment under Article 120 of the American Uniform Code of Military Justice, acts of rape were rarely reported and seldom convicted during the Vietnam war. The number of rape cases tried did not nearly reflect the rampancy of rape in Vietnam. The conviction rates were low and the sentences extremely light".

2. Cover ups: "For four months the Peers Panel interviewed 398 witnesses, ranging from General Koster to the GIs of Charlie Company. Over 20,000 pages of testimony were taken. The Peers Report criticized the actions of both officers and enlisted men. The report recommended action against dozens of men for rape, murder, or participation in the cover-up".

3. Official recognition of rape in the Peers Report: "A part of the crimes visited on the inhabitants of Son My Village included individual and group acts Of murder, rape, sodomy, maiming, and assault on noncombatants and the mistreatment and killing of detainees. They further included the killing of livestock, destruction of crops, closing of wells, and the burning of dwellings within several subhamlets".

http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/sixtie...eher_Rape.html

http://www.now.org/nnt/fall-99/viewpoint.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj.../findings.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...Myl_intro.html
July 12th, 2006  
Chief Bones
 
 
I guess my experiences in Vietnam didn't follow the pattern you have painted with your data. None of my fellow soldiers ever participated in any of the actions that you have described. I am not finding fault with your data ... I am just stating that it was NOT my experience to see large numbers of rape charges being brought against the troops.

96 continuous days under combat conditions would definitely fall under the heading of combat exhaustion ... and ... NOT ONE SINGLE INCIDENT OF MURDER, RAPE, SODOMY, MAIMING, ASSAULT on noncombatants (or) MISTREATMENT and KILLING of detainees DID I EVER WITNESS. I did witness the dismemberment of our own soldiers at the hands of the Cong.

Can I understand soldiers doing these things out of revenge ... YES I CAN. When the dismembered body is the body of your best friend, revenge is never very far from your mind.
July 12th, 2006  
LeEnfield
 
 
Back in the 1950's a National Serviceman could often spend his whole two years on active service with out any form of leave. Once they had finished there training period they were shipped out to places like Malaya and would be out in the jungles most of the time with the odd break back at camp. If Battle Field exhaustion is the cause of it then why was there not more rapes and murders on Allied side during WW2. I have known men that were in almost constant action for six years, yet they never flipped.
 


Similar Topics
Japan to pull troops from Iraq
New Rules In Iraq May Make It Tougher To Keep Insurgents
Shaking hands with Sadam Hussein
PM to send more troops to Iraq
Rights act 'impossible in Iraq'