US torturing terror suspects?

[r031Button]

I think it may have something to do with Iraqi Nationalism. I mean if your army is disbanded by a foreign power, then reinstated under a new name; would you join up? Think about it, if the USMC was disbanded by an invading nation, would you then join up with the ADF?

Or it could have something to do with the fact that they are prime targets and targets of choice for the terrorists. Look who's getting hit. Police Stations.
The terrorists are attempting to destroy what little infrastructure does exist. In the beginning recruitment was going well. But now.

I wass going to say something about that; but I wasn't too sure on the details. I had heard of lines getting hit with mortars and the like; sounds like their recruiting is almost as bad as ours . Police stations are a good terrorist targets, you can justify it ideologically(tools of the infadel) and stratigicly it makes good sense.

 

[03USMC]

Ideologically and strategically. The aim is to weaken any attempt to create or stabilize the infrastructure. The Goal is to make the fight so costly to both the Iraqi's and the US that popular opinion forces a draw down of Coalition Forces.

If they can get any stabilizing force out of the country before the rebuilding can be started and a strong Iraqi run goverment implaced then it's ripe for another Fundamentalist Cleric governed Islamic state ala Iran.

 

[chewie_nz]

coalition? what coalition?

the US, UK and Japan? there was a reason that the mighty coalition of the first gulf war isn't here this time. because this invasion should never have happened. end of story.

 

[RnderSafe]

coalition? what coalition?

the US, UK and Japan? there was a reason that the mighty coalition of the first gulf war isn't here this time. because this invasion should never have happened. end of story.

Nice rhetoric, looks good on ya.

Now, how about we all stay on topic from now on. Okay? Great!

 

[chewie_nz]

fair enough;


the US should not be torturing people no matter what the reason/excuse is. when all is said and done torture is barbaric and can only add to the already bad reputation the US has in the middle east. and it reflects on all of us.

 

[03USMC]

fair enough;


the US should not be torturing people no matter what the reason/excuse is. when all is said and done torture is barbaric and can only add to the already bad reputation the US has in the middle east. and it reflects on all of us.

Okay just for giggles Kiwi. Give me one solid incident that supports your assertions that wholesale torture is being committed by the US Military and or US Intelligence Agencies. Outside of the " Ghost Aircraft" or the Prison Scandal.

 

[chewie_nz]

fair enough;


the US should not be torturing people no matter what the reason/excuse is. when all is said and done torture is barbaric and can only add to the already bad reputation the US has in the middle east. and it reflects on all of us.

Okay just for giggles Kiwi. Give me one solid incident that supports your assertions that wholesale torture is being committed by the US Military and or US Intelligence Agencies. Outside of the " Ghost Aircraft" or the Prison Scandal.

apart from the prison scandal (gee, that was a BIG SCANDAL!) i don't have any firm stories. but there is more than enough "bits" of info flying around that doesn't exactly disproove my point. what about the guy tried in afghanistan for running his own illegal prison and always asserted that he was under orders. and numerous stories of civilian contractors that seem to be under no ones juristiction.

but that is by the by;

torture wrong.

 

[03USMC]

Your Honor. The Defense rests.

 

[chewie_nz]

*cough*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6007807/

KABUL - Three Americans have been sentenced to up to 10 years in jail after being found guilty by an Afghan court on charges including torture, running a private prison and illegal detention.

Jonathan “Jack” Idema, a former U.S. Green Beret, was arrested in July along with another ex-serviceman, Brent Bennett, and documentary film-maker Edward Caraballo.

They had denied the charges and insisted they were in Afghanistan with U.S. and Afghan government sanction to help track down al-Qaida and Taliban extremists.

http://207.44.245.159/article7409.htm

One's first response to the report by the International Red Cross about torture at our prison at Guantanamo is denial. "I don't want to think about it; I don't want to hear about it; we're the good guys, they're the bad guys; shut up. And besides, they attacked us first."

But our country has opposed torture since its founding. One of our founding principles is that cruel and unusual punishment is both illegal and wrong. Every year, our State Department issues a report grading other countries on their support for or violations of human rights.

The first requirement here is that we look at what we are doing - and not blink, not use euphemisms. Despite the Red Cross' polite language, this is not "tantamount to torture." It's torture. It is not "detainee abuse." It's torture.

If they were doing it to you, you would know it was torture. It must be hidden away, because it's happening in Cuba or elsewhere abroad.

Yes, it's true, we did sort of know this already. It was clear when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in Iraq that the infection had come from Guantanamo.


and ; http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s962052.htm

LINDA MOTTRAM: New claims have emerged that prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are being tortured by their American captors, and the claims say that Australians David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib are among the victims.

US-based Australian lawyer, Richard Bourke, has made the allegations after working for almost two years on the cases of Camp X-Ray detainees. He says that he and his colleagues have been receiving reports of horrendous abuse of prisoners in Cuba, and in Afghanistan.

They've made slow progress through the American court system. Mr Bourke says he's now prepared to take the cases to international tribunals, including the UN Standing Committee on Torture.


and that was the work of five minutes worth of googling

 

[03USMC]

An American who may or may not have been under contract to a Govermental Agency. Or in all likelihood is probably trying to get a bounty. Yeah I'd have a Conspiracy Theory too

 

[chewie_nz]

Results 1 - 10 of about 495,000 for illegal torture americans. (0.32 seconds)

it's and easy thing to tink through;

"would i like to be tortured?"

did you answer no?

 

[03USMC]

Results 1 - 10 of about 495,000 for illegal torture americans. (0.32 seconds)

Results of what?

 

[chewie_nz]

google search

 

[03USMC]

Yeah I just ran the same Google. Guess What 805,000. I scanned the first 10 it includes Historical records, Accusations against LEO's etc. Everything the in the Key Word search.

You don't like the US fine I can deal with that.

 

[chewie_nz]

Mod Edit: Post removed. You were right, it is off topic. Stay ON topic from now on.

 

[RnderSafe]

Jonathan “Jack” Idema, a former U.S. Green Beret,

You may want to educate yourself about Mr. Idema before attempting to use him and his comrades as an example to prove your point. Using a fraud, and (prior to this incidence, even) convicted US criminal does not help your argument.

LINDA MOTTRAM: New claims have emerged that prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are being tortured by their American captors, and the claims say that Australians David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib are among the victims.

I've been to GITMO, those prisoners are treated better than the MPs assigned to contain them.

It seems to me, as if you're attempting to take two instances .. neither with proof or any substantial backing, and accuse the entire United States Military and Government of sanctioning the torture of prisoners.

In other words, if Pvt. Snuffy decides to get a little rambunctious, takes an EPW (whom is in fact an illegal combatant given POW status by the good graces of the US military) and pretends he will administer shock therapy if the correct responses are not given to his questions, the entire USG is guilty of sanctioning mistreatment and torture of prisoners.

Not only is that a bit far fetched, it doesn't fit with the reality of events. Mud slinging will only get you so far.

Does torture and mistreatment happen? Yes. Has it always happened? Yes. Will it continue to happen? Probably. Will those caught violating the ROEs, GC, and UCMJ be held accountable? Most definitely.

 

[devilwasp]

Yes sir I respect your point of view and honesty - But I also understand that no terrorists from sweden transported to Egypt have had their children interrigated in Egypt for terrorist actions sir.

Did i get a field promotion?
Look man you dont need to call me sir.

This is a good question? Maybe we should ask their fathers about this one. They are the ones who puts up modified landmines to blow younger men then I am in to pieces on the local highways. It is not the US Marines who runs into crowds with TNT strapped to their bodys killing of police and other gov people and then all innocent people that stands around. Problem is sir that dead people dont talk, and it can be hard to get any opinion from them sir.

Dont quite know how to reply to that one..

Oh yes he could change alot of people even adults but it was more easy to take the innocent childrens that wasn`t streetwise and didnt have that experiance and compassion for other human beings as some of the adults probably had before they were scared to silence or converted to be mr Adolf Hitlers willing servants. But this is 2005 and far from 1932-1945 - 1946-1955 European history events sir.

I was suggesting a tactic for the "Terrorists" in iraq. The ones actually fighting to get thier country back.

No sir I dont agree over here - We are talking about the terrorists that we are taking in for questioning and not the familys that often dont know a jackass about what there father are doing untill he blows himselfe to peaces. I am not talking about going over any family lines. Then you would probably need another Hiroshima or Nagasaki but even bigger to deal with the problems after such behaviour. And you cant seriously mean that american soldiers would kidnapp terrorist familys, put a 9mm to a 8 year old kids head and pull the trigger infront of his fathers eyes just to get information from he´s dad? No one would talk after such treatment sir. I can assure you that. Problem is that these terrorists dont give a damn about their familys. Well yes Money probably but that is all. Next step in their world is that they get to go to "Nirvana" 70 virgins and a heck of a party togheter with Allah sir.

Threatning the family is another style of torture. Its a tactic that is effective yet unhumane.

Well sir.... I would like to put it like this once again. When did you see a terrorist try to torture a human being for information about where Washington DC is and where to put a bomb big enough to kill alot of people in the railway system? Well sir maybe they torture people, but that is not for saving other lifes. Thats because they seem to get a kick out of it, and probably they get that too. I dont want to get messy but maybe you should ask that question too a proferssional Terrorist if you ever have the misfortune to face one or two eye to eye. As a soldier you will have to kill them wether you want to or not son, or the other alternative - Let someone close to you explain to your son why his dad and six of dads soldier buddies are dead. hopefully they didnt torture or behead dad before they shoot him at point blank.

The IRA done that to thrawt enemy intel agencies and get information about movement of important figures.
They do sometimes save thier operatives lives, remember they care about thier comrades as well as we do.
This is probably why they have people more ruthless than me in the intel buisness.

If I had to tell my son or daughter why I have to hurt another human being to get information that can save hundreds maybe thousands of innocent people in there own age. Yes sir I would put it out to them in a ordinary fachion and try my best to explain for the kid depending on wich age he/she may be sir. I think alot more people should do that instead of making up ghost storys about the big satan. Kids grows up finaly, and even if they maby have a hard time to understand why people have to hurt each other sometimes they will grow up and understand that part sooner or later anyway, even if I may find it hard to understand from time to time I know that as an adult male that other people will get even more hurt if dady didnt do something to prevent it.

I think saveing hundreds is a bit of an overstatement and giveing it to them blutly like that would be pretty harmful to a child.

Sir you will probably be a great field medic or maby firefighter in the army. You seem to be a very nice person that wants to save human lifes. And you have a great deal of compassion for other human beings wich is a great ability if you want to understand your fellow human beings. The thing is that sometimes this methods are needed to get the information fast or maby your convoy is the target for the next bomb in 24 hours. I dont like torture as a tool for retribution or when people put up women underwear on prisoners head and have them posing for the cameras. But I can assure you that I did disslike the beheading of that young Nick Bergh more then those photos and I know that we can expect more pictures from where they came from. I didnt like to see women, men drop out from the World Trade Center either and I didnt like to see those burned bodys of westerners dragged and burned hanging and mutilated at that bridge. You have alot to walk on but still much to learn about terrorist my young friend, but hey! You are not alone.

Thanks , you seem to be good officer material. You sem to balance the need to get the mission done against the basic rights of someone.
I dont totally agree with you but i understand what you mean..safe journey's.

 

[Doc.S]

I was suggesting a tactic for the "Terrorists" in iraq. The ones actually fighting to get thier country back.

I dont get this at all - From exactly who are they trying to fight their country back from? The Iraqis themselfe? I ask myselfe over here who invented that statement from the beginning?

Threatning the family is another style of torture. Its a tactic that is effective yet unhumane.

I agree it is inhumane to torture another human being always. But still they are in a state of psychosis when they move out on their final trip. I would like to make the simile with deep hypnosis. If you got the secret password maby you can snapp your finger before the terrorist and make him talk without putting a finger on him? But unfortunatly that does not work.

The IRA done that to thrawt enemy intel agencies and get information about movement of important figures. They do sometimes save thier operatives lives, remember they care about thier comrades as well as we do. This is probably why they have people more ruthless than me in the intel buisness.

Well this is another form of terrorism, and Jihad terrorists are far from the IRA blokes to be honest, if I have understand the information let out in media right, documentary movies and other sources. I find it very hard to draw the lines between IRA and Eastern Terrorists to be honest.

I think saveing hundreds is a bit of an overstatement and giveing it to them blutly like that would be pretty harmful to a child.

This has actualy happend in Beslan if I dont recall this years news all to wrong. You say it would be pretty harmful for a child. Noticed what I writed in my previous message.

Doc.S wrote:

Yes sir I would put it out to them in a ordinary fachion and try my best to explain for the kid depending on wich age he/she may be sir.

Im sorry that this world isn`t Disneyland, and I am verry sorry that people dont get it that this is how the reality works outside the livingroom. Kids snatch up alot of horror on the TV when adults aren´t around. They have classmates and others that see those pictures of burnt out cars, dead people, dead kids in there same age and as a kid you ask questions about it. I think it is the best way to prepare a kid in my humble opinion. I would not have kids if I wanted them to be grow up in a state of no consciousness. Then I think its better not to make children at all.

Thanks , you seem to be good officer material. You sem to balance the need to get the mission done against the basic rights of someone.

Actually I rather see a mission done then hundreds of innocent victims killed by madmen fighting for their own dreams to get closer to a fiction god that they themselves have made up, when millions of their believers around the world can handle their religion without killing innocent people on a daily basis. Yes I was going to be a platoon officer in the military as a ambulance driver/paramedic. I wish you the same kid

Cheers:
Doc.S
:viking:

 

[devilwasp]

I dont get this at all - From exactly who are they trying to fight their country back from? The Iraqis themselfe? I ask myselfe over here who invented that statement from the beginning?

From thier POV the coalition is invaders and are trying to "take back" thier country.
We may not be but that is how they think.

I agree it is inhumane to torture another human being always. But still they are in a state of psychosis when they move out on their final trip. I would like to make the simile with deep hypnosis. If you got the secret password maby you can snapp your finger before the terrorist and make him talk without putting a finger on him? But unfortunatly that does not work.

Yes if only...

Well this is another form of terrorism, and Jihad terrorists are far from the IRA blokes to be honest, if I have understand the information let out in media right, documentary movies and other sources. I find it very hard to draw the lines between IRA and Eastern Terrorists to be honest.

Well they are both designated as terrorists.
They apart in thier views and most tactics but thier fighting tactics are quite similar.
I have no doubt the insurgents have done these tactics to some members of the forces.

This has actualy happend in Beslan if I dont recall this years news all to wrong. You say it would be pretty harmful for a child. Noticed what I writed in my previous message.

Yes it might prepare them for life but what about during thier life to adult hood?
They could simply justify anything and everything in their eyes as protecting someone.

Im sorry that this world isn`t Disneyland, and I am verry sorry that people dont get it that this is how the reality works outside the livingroom. Kids snatch up alot of horror on the TV when adults aren´t around. They have classmates and others that see those pictures of burnt out cars, dead people, dead kids in there same age and as a kid you ask questions about it. I think it is the best way to prepare a kid in my humble opinion. I would not have kids if I wanted them to be grow up in a state of no consciousness. Then I think its better not to make children at all.

I didnt, i seen no pictures of such things.
Nethier did any of my mates until oh about highschool.

Actually I rather see a mission done then hundreds of innocent victims killed by madmen fighting for their own dreams to get closer to a fiction god that they themselves have made up, when millions of their believers around the world can handle their religion without killing innocent people on a daily basis. Yes I was going to be a platoon officer in the military as a ambulance driver/paramedic. I wish you the same kid

Me too , I like to see the mission done but unhumane tactics i hate.
If someone is doing wrong then go ahead do what you want to him, if not then leave him.
Was? are you changing your mind?[/url]

 

[03USMC]

You are making it sound as if US Forces are scooping subjects up at random and subjecting them to torture.