US torturing terror suspects?

I have to disagree - This has nothing to do with getting down to someone elses level. This is the only way to get those people to talk period. You cant convert a terrorist with humane ways. To think that is nothing else then naive. Look at all the innocent victims in Iraq. Women, Children, Old people, aid workers, policemen, the list goes on and on. Who the hell is protecting those people from getting killed by their neighbours?

The Terrorists living next door since 20 years back? Maby we should ask those bastards if they just cant come over on a Tea-party without a bomb and tell them that it is wrong to kill your own people, and it is wrong to use Islam as a weapon for massdestruction and it is wrong to blow hundreds of kids to hell just because you want Sharia laws and see your enemys blood spreading all over the soil.

Please nice terrorist guy, Tell me where Usama Bin Ladin are, or please mr Terrorist forget your mission in this world and tell us where we can find your cousine mr Al-Zarqavi - when we are waiting for you to come to your sences your friends got plenty of time to trigger of some new landmines at the highway and destroy some checkpoints sir. We will just built up some schools and educate your kids meanwhile. :lol:

I find this all cuddling so ridiculous that I dont even find words for that shit anymore. Have people stoped watch the news or have people just got stupid as the years went on? What the heck do they need to understand that this Terrorist guys dont give a crap about schools or other human lifes? When will people wake up from this Utopia Dreamland and understand that pregnant women are blown up everyday because of these terrorists we have to be so nice to that maybe they should be offered a vacation on Hawaii after every successful mortar attack? People wake up for god sake and maybe some normal lives can be saved!

It is soon 2005 - It is not the year of the lord 1200 anylonger. I think the terrorists have to understand that too. And apparently alot of other people too because you cant **** around with these guys. Let`s face it boys and girls, you can be the next one in a high building or in a school. You can be the next one in the subway to get poisoned of Sarin gas. You can be the next one to see this world from a wheel chair and still you want to help this world cuddle with these bastards? I find it sick people.


Cheers:
Doc.S
:viking:
 
I agree Doc S. Hearts and Minds are all well and good if it's possible. And please spare me the, " The Insurgents in Iraq are fighting for their country." BS. Some of them maybe fighting for Nationalist Ideas. But What about all the other Arab Country Nationals that are there? Are they fighting for a Free Iraq? H**L NO! The extremists have declared Jihad on the west not just the US the West people. If you are not Islamic you are an infidel you are a target. If you are Islamic yet you assist Infidels or disagree with the hardline accepted by these groups you are a target.
The extermeist groups have taken a religion which is very tolerant and turned it into a battle cry for wanton murder.

Go ahead build schools, hospitals, and public works. If you believe it will win hearts and minds. It might until the next "Martyr" drives a car loaded with plastic explosives into it. Beause it was built by the the Great Satan to pollute Islam. According to Assahma Bin Laden or some other Whack job.
Was Iraq or Afghanistan defending themselves and their Nations by murdering people in Madrid? By beheading journalists and Aid workers?
No they are trying to spread Terror hence they are Terrorists and should be dealt with as such. I'm all for stopping the warm fuzzies lets try to understand them. You don't understand a rabid dog . You don't hold negotiations with a rabid dog. You kill a rabid dog.
The parallel to the Holacuast is reaching it's apples and oranges. The victims of that tragadey can in no way be compared to the terrorists of today.
 
Doc.S said:
I have to disagree - This has nothing to do with getting down to someone elses level. This is the only way to get those people to talk period. You cant convert a terrorist with humane ways. To think that is nothing else then naive. Look at all the innocent victims in Iraq. Women, Children, Old people, aid workers, policemen, the list goes on and on. Who the h**l is protecting those people from getting killed by their neighbours?
You can get them to talk easy with just simple methods and you dont even touch them.
There is no need to try and convert them, its the children and younger generation.
These people will grow old and die, but the children will live on. Win thier hearts and you will win the war.
The Terrorists living next door since 20 years back? Maby we should ask those bastards if they just cant come over on a Tea-party without a bomb and tell them that it is wrong to kill your own people, and it is wrong to use Islam as a weapon for massdestruction and it is wrong to blow hundreds of kids to h**l just because you want Sharia laws and see your enemys blood spreading all over the soil.
Its easy to justify to yourself, justify it to the families of the dead in iraq and to children.
Please nice terrorist guy, Tell me where Usama Bin Ladin are, or please mr Terrorist forget your mission in this world and tell us where we can find your cousine mr Al-Zarqavi - when we are waiting for you to come to your sences your friends got plenty of time to trigger of some new landmines at the highway and destroy some checkpoints sir. We will just built up some schools and educate your kids meanwhile. :lol:
As hitler found out , you cant change adults but you can change children.
I find this all cuddling so ridiculous that I dont even find words for that shit anymore. Have people stoped watch the news or have people just got stupid as the years went on? What the heck do they need to understand that this Terrorist guys dont give a crap about schools or other human lifes? When will people wake up from this Utopia Dreamland and understand that pregnant women are blown up everyday because of these terrorists we have to be so nice to that maybe they should be offered a vacation on Hawaii after every successful mortar attack? People wake up for god sake and maybe some normal lives can be saved!
Would you feel better knowing that you just shot a child to get information on his fathers organisation.
I mean hey if torture is okey then it should be fine to hurt his families.
Just another means of getting information. The end does not justify the means.
It is soon 2005 - It is not the year of the lord 1200 anylonger. I think the terrorists have to understand that too. And apparently alot of other people too because you cant f**k around with these guys. Let`s face it boys and girls, you can be the next one in a high building or in a school. You can be the next one in the subway to get poisoned of Sarin gas. You can be the next one to see this world from a wheel chair and still you want to help this world cuddle with these bastards? I find it sick people.
I get angry at these terrorists to!
EVERY ONE HATES THEM!
That does not mean we need to use thier methods on them.
DO YOU WANT TO BE THE ONE WHO TELLS YOUR CHILD THAT YOU HURT ANOTHER PERSON TO GET INFORMATION??
If and when i join the military i will not let this happen! By god as my witness i will not let anyman do this no matter the cause!
 
devilwasp said:
You can get them to talk easy with just simple methods and you dont even touch them.
There is no need to try and convert them, its the children and younger generation.
These people will grow old and die, but the children will live on. Win thier hearts and you will win the war.
its easy to justify to yourself, justify it to the families of the dead in iraq and to children.
As hitler found out , you cant change adults but you can change children.

Would you feel better knowing that you just shot a child to get information on his fathers organisation.
I mean hey if torture is okey then it should be fine to hurt his families.
Just another means of getting information. The end does not justify the means.
I get angry at these terrorists to!
EVERY ONE HATES THEM!
That does not mean we need to use thier methods on them.
DO YOU WANT TO BE THE ONE WHO TELLS YOUR CHILD THAT YOU HURT ANOTHER PERSON TO GET INFORMATION??
If and when i join the military i will not let this happen! By god as my witness i will not let anyman do this no matter the cause!

Well as long as your speaking from a BTDT point of view. ;) The problem is your not. It's fine to have high standards and impeccable ethics. Do you really believe that the Terrorists would give you the same ? Doubtful.

IMO The bottom line is this. Make War on innocents expect no quarter.
 
03USMC said:
Well as long as your speaking from a BTDT point of view. ;) The problem is your not. It's fine to have high standards and impeccable ethics. Do you really believe that the Terrorists would give you the same ? Doubtful.

IMO The bottom line is this. Make War on innocents expect no quarter.
BTDT?
No they dont, and i see where your comeing from. I can understand and some part of me actually wants this , but....its not right!
 
Sometimes harsher methods need to be employed to gain the information one needs. On occasion even torture is known to be an effective method of interrogation but not always. What I dont understand is, what is the point of taking pictures? Do only what is necessary to gain the information you need. Interrogation should never be personal. If you allow emotions to be involved you start to lose sight of the objective. And that goes for both sides of the argument. The purpose of interrogation is to gain information that will be useful. And the method you use should be decided by the willingness of the subject to co operate aswell as what motivates them to give information. Sometimes the psychological approach works best and at other times a physical approach is the only option. Torture should never be employed as a form of retribution. This achieves nothing.
 
chewie_nz said:
once again i feel that someone needs to say.

why do we need to go down to that level. i don't hear anyone owning up to torturing nazi party members?

aren't you just giving them a reason to continue their struggle. you win these struggles by building hospitals and school. not by torturing people. and esp not by setting the wrong example for this middle eastern experiment in democracy

So far, the criminals have blown up every police station, church, school, firehouse, oil pump stations, etc..... that we have built. I'm not sure if putting a pair of women's underwear on someone's head and taking nude photos of them is as bad as sawing someone's head off while they scream. as near as I recall, all of those victims were non combatants.
I don't recommend it but I did watch one of the executions, I noticed the knife wasn't large or sharp.
 
DocS and USMC03 are correct in what they say, you can't talk to these people and expect them to talk back.

I remember seeing an episode of "The Shield" where some doctor kidnapped a little girl and he wouldn' talk, so Vic went in there and he beat the hell out of that guy, and what did the guy do, he told the cops where the girl was, now Dutch wanted to talk to the guy.

terrorists are smart people, many interrogators try to get people to talk by playing word games with them and hugging them so to speak, but the terrorists don't respond to that, they respond to pain and fear.

remember the Munich Olympics, remember what happened to the Israeli atheletes, they were kidnapped and murdered, did the Israelis respond with hugs and kisses, hell no, the Israelis made it clear that you don't **** with them through use of force.

I have the source on this info if you don't believe me.
 
remember the Munich Olympics, remember what happened to the Israeli atheletes, they were kidnapped and murdered, did the Israelis respond with hugs and kisses, h**l no, the Israelis made it clear that you don't **** with them through use of force.


yep...and isreal now doesn't have to worry about terrorism...oh hang on
 
Jason Bourne said:
I remember seeing an episode of "The Shield" where some doctor kidnapped a little girl and he wouldn' talk, so Vic went in there and he beat the h**l out of that guy, and what did the guy do, he told the cops where the girl was, now Dutch wanted to talk to the guy.

remember the Munich Olympics, remember what happened to the Israeli atheletes, they were kidnapped and murdered, did the Israelis respond with hugs and kisses, h**l no, the Israelis made it clear that you don't **** with them through use of force.
.

Well as long as TV does it; it must work right? So that means my C7 has an 18 foot muzzle flash and that I never have to reload unless for dramatic effect?

Also; I would hardly look to Israel on how to deal with terrorists effectively; how to fight and Urban war? yeah they know that inside and out...but I don't think anything the Isrealis have done has been particularly effective at combatting terrorism.
 
So the solution is Flowers candy hugs and warm fuzzies ?

Man where was I when supply was issueing all the Rose Colored glasses.
 
i'm just saying that isreal is a good example. 50 years on they haven't solved terrorism.

i just wouldn't feel like negotiating with a tank sitting outside my bombed out home either.

i don't care who you are, you invade my country i will fight with any means possible, wouldn't you?
 
I have to agree with Chewie, Isreal is perhaps the worst example of how to deal with Terrorism "hmmm, well they hate us for taking their land...LETS TAKE MORE!".

I think terrorism is a problem that's rooted in social issues; hard working middle class people don't blow themselves up or follow Islamic radicals. It's when you get into situations where you have a disgruntles lower class and an upper class with lots of time on it's hands that fundamentalism takes hold.
 
Well chewie then i guess your right, maybe we should all just bend over and take it up the ass for them, hell why don't we just fund their whole damn operation
 
i know, i'm sorry that came out wrong, i know what your saying, i'm just not saying what i mean right.

i mean i think it and it is right, just it doesn't sound right when you say it, know what i mean, i shouldn't have said what i said and i apologize, i am not for torturing them i am just saying that they don't respond to anything else so sometimes the methods must be extreme in order to get answers.
 
Thank you 03USMC and I have alot of respect for men like you sir! Your type they dont build anymore I think. Maybe they do sir but you are a rare man if you lived where I am living sir! It is an honor to write on the same forum as you sir. :m1:

Most Sincerly:
Doc.S
:viking:

devilwasp wrote:
You can get them to talk easy with just simple methods and you dont even touch them. There is no need to try and convert them, its the children and younger generation. These people will grow old and die, but the children will live on. Win thier hearts and you will win the war.

Yes sir I respect your point of view and honesty - But I also understand that no terrorists from sweden transported to Egypt have had their children interrigated in Egypt for terrorist actions sir.

Its easy to justify to yourself, justify it to the families of the dead in iraq and to children.

This is a good question? Maybe we should ask their fathers about this one. They are the ones who puts up modified landmines to blow younger men then I am in to pieces on the local highways. It is not the US Marines who runs into crowds with TNT strapped to their bodys killing of police and other gov people and then all innocent people that stands around. Problem is sir that dead people dont talk, and it can be hard to get any opinion from them sir.

As hitler found out , you cant change adults but you can change children.

Oh yes he could change alot of people even adults but it was more easy to take the innocent childrens that wasn`t streetwise and didnt have that experiance and compassion for other human beings as some of the adults probably had before they were scared to silence or converted to be mr Adolf Hitlers willing servants. But this is 2005 and far from 1932-1945 - 1946-1955 European history events sir.

Would you feel better knowing that you just shot a child to get information on his fathers organisation. I mean hey if torture is okey then it should be fine to hurt his families. Just another means of getting information. The end does not justify the means.

No sir I dont agree over here - We are talking about the terrorists that we are taking in for questioning and not the familys that often dont know a jackass about what there father are doing untill he blows himselfe to peaces. I am not talking about going over any family lines. Then you would probably need another Hiroshima or Nagasaki but even bigger to deal with the problems after such behaviour. And you cant seriously mean that american soldiers would kidnapp terrorist familys, put a 9mm to a 8 year old kids head and pull the trigger infront of his fathers eyes just to get information from he´s dad? No one would talk after such treatment sir. I can assure you that. Problem is that these terrorists dont give a damn about their familys. Well yes Money probably but that is all. Next step in their world is that they get to go to "Nirvana" 70 virgins and a heck of a party togheter with Allah sir.

That does not mean we need to use thier methods on them.
DO YOU WANT TO BE THE ONE WHO TELLS YOUR CHILD THAT YOU HURT ANOTHER PERSON TO GET INFORMATION??

Well sir.... I would like to put it like this once again. When did you see a terrorist try to torture a human being for information about where Washington DC is and where to put a bomb big enough to kill alot of people in the railway system? Well sir maybe they torture people, but that is not for saving other lifes. Thats because they seem to get a kick out of it, and probably they get that too. I dont want to get messy but maybe you should ask that question too a proferssional Terrorist if you ever have the misfortune to face one or two eye to eye. As a soldier you will have to kill them wether you want to or not son, or the other alternative - Let someone close to you explain to your son why his dad and six of dads soldier buddies are dead. hopefully they didnt torture or behead dad before they shoot him at point blank.

If I had to tell my son or daughter why I have to hurt another human being to get information that can save hundreds maybe thousands of innocent people in there own age. Yes sir I would put it out to them in a ordinary fachion and try my best to explain for the kid depending on wich age he/she may be sir. I think alot more people should do that instead of making up ghost storys about the big satan. Kids grows up finaly, and even if they maby have a hard time to understand why people have to hurt each other sometimes they will grow up and understand that part sooner or later anyway, even if I may find it hard to understand from time to time I know that as an adult male that other people will get even more hurt if dady didnt do something to prevent it.

If and when i join the military i will not let this happen! By god as my witness i will not let anyman do this no matter the cause!

Sir you will probably be a great field medic or maby firefighter in the army. You seem to be a very nice person that wants to save human lifes. And you have a great deal of compassion for other human beings wich is a great ability if you want to understand your fellow human beings. The thing is that sometimes this methods are needed to get the information fast or maby your convoy is the target for the next bomb in 24 hours. I dont like torture as a tool for retribution or when people put up women underwear on prisoners head and have them posing for the cameras. But I can assure you that I did disslike the beheading of that young Nick Bergh more then those photos and I know that we can expect more pictures from where they came from. I didnt like to see women, men drop out from the World Trade Center either and I didnt like to see those burned bodys of westerners dragged and burned hanging and mutilated at that bridge. You have alot to walk on but still much to learn about terrorist my young friend, but hey! You are not alone. :(

Best Regards:
Doc.S
:viking:
 
Israel is an example of how the fundamentalists work.

How many peace conferences were sponsored and had Yassar Arafat promising that the PLO could get along with the Israelis? Hammas and the rest of the Extremists wouldn't buy it. It's their way or they Kill as many as they can.
Their view is get out or we blow up a school bus. Regardless of the fact that innocents are aboard.

Then howl and whine about underware on a guys head, while they saw heads off westerners. Okay got ya.

Yeah the run of the mill suicide bomber may come from the lower class and be disgruntled. But who is financing it . Money men like Bin Laden who have made up their minds that they are the Mahdi. Cause you darn sure can't buy symtex with goats.
 
sorry i mixed up names, eralier i said i agree with USMC03 and Wasp, i meant i agree with USMC03 and Doc.S sorry.

but that is what i'm saying the terrorists cdna't be resoned with and they can't be talked to, when you need information to prevent more death you must make them talk
 
03USMC said:
So the solution is Flowers candy hugs and warm fuzzies ?

Man where was I when supply was issueing all the Rose Colored glasses.
The solution is to go and shot the bstrds before they get a chance to hurt people, BUT beating the crap outa someone to get info is a bit fking drastic!
 
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