US, Russia vie to sell choppers to IAF

SwordFish_13

Active member
Hi,

Another “fight” is set to begin in the Indian defence sector in the next couple of weeks. On one side is India’s long standing defence partner Russia and on the other is its new-found strategic friend the USA, which is vying to further chip away at the largely Russian hold over the sector.

Within next three weeks, the Indian Air Force will commence field trials to select a heavy lift helicopter for its operations. The trials will be conducted in hot conditions of deserts and on Himalayan heights. US company Boeing with its “Chinook”, which operates for NATO forces in Afghanistan, will compete with Russian Mi-26 for the deal.

The IAF is looking to replace the ageing lot of the previous generation Mi-26 inducted in the mid 1980’s. Russia’s Rosoboronexport, the makers of the chopper, have offered the latest version.


ind6.jpg

A heavy lift chopper is of immense strategic value as it can lift up to 70 armed troops and even lift artillery guns like the ultra light howitzers which the Indian Army is buying for deployment in mountainous areas bordering China and Pakistan. Among its several other usages is the rapid deployment of missile launchers for Agni or Prithvi from one place to other.

Mi-26 with 20-tonne carrying capacity, which is the biggest among choppers, have even lifted Bofors guns to higher reaches, placed bulldozers at a height of 16,500 feet and landed critical equipment for the IAF at places like Ladakh.

US-made Chinook, which has contra-rotating twin-rotors to withstand rough weather, is being used extensively in Afghanistan to maintain steady supplies to the troops. It can also carry artillery guns slung under its belly to be dropped off at inaccessible locations. Both choppers have twin-engined operations.

The same US and Russian companies will also be in race for attack choppers the IAF is buying. Trials for them are slated to start in two months. The Boeing is offering its “AH 64D” Apache fighting machine, which is on duty in Afghanistan, while Russian Rosoboronexport has offered newer versions of its latest Mi 28 ‘Havoc’ helicopter, which was inducted by its armed forces in 2006.

The US “challenge” to the Russians is the new face of India’s evolving defence needs wherein it has ordered C-130 J medium transport aircraft from another US company, Lockheed Martin, delivery of which starts at the end of this year. This even as the IAF operates some 100 AN 32 medium transport planes of the Soviet-era which are presently undergoing phased refit at Ukraine.

C-17 Globemaster, a big transport aircraft, has been okayed by the US Congress for sale to India through the foreign military sales (FMS) route. India is looking to replace IL-76, another Russian origin plane. The cost may be hindrance, the US plane costs somewhere around $580 million a piece, while the Russian one is for one-tenth the price.

Separately, the IAF has already placed an order to buy 80 MI-17 “V5” series choppers to replace the existing lot of MI-17’s - another workhorse in the mountains.

Another contract for the long-range sea-based reconnaissance for the Indian Navy has been awarded to a US company, while the Russians are supplying the Airborne Early Warning Systems (AWACS) for the IAF.

The fight goes on. The US has bagged the contract to supply business jets for VVIP travel, while Italian chopper maker AgustaWestland had bagged the contract to provide 12 choppers for VVIP use.
Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
I just wish the Russian manufacturers showed at least some national identity, and at least tried to sell to RUSSIAN MILITARY FIRST, then bloody foreigners. As it is, our own forces live like ****; Indian military has more T90s than we do. It is a disgrace! Putin should do the right thing and renationalize the weapons factories already. Greedy, capitalist bastrads they are. Don't give a damn about their own country. Bring them back in line!
 
I just wish the Russian manufacturers showed at least some national identity, and at least tried to sell to RUSSIAN MILITARY FIRST, then bloody foreigners. As it is, our own forces live like ****; Indian military has more T90s than we do. It is a disgrace! Putin should do the right thing and renationalize the weapons factories already. Greedy, capitalist bastrads they are. Don't give a damn about their own country. Bring them back in line!
Trolling... are you ?

Perhaps the Russian military should start to functions as a normal military, and concentrate on the training, instead of the bullying of conscripts and using conscripts as slave labour.

The Russian overextended tank troops do not need new tanks. Nobody is threatening Russia. The old nitshivo (doesn't matter) attitude is the biggest enemy of Russia. An example, even though denied:
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/watch?v=APRh_uZVAQ8


Sellers are hardly at fault.
 
Trolling... are you ?

Perhaps the Russian military should start to functions as a normal military, and concentrate on the training, instead of the bullying of conscripts and using conscripts as slave labour.

The Russian overextended tank troops do not need new tanks. Nobody is threatening Russia. The old nitshivo (doesn't matter) attitude is the biggest enemy of Russia. An example, even though denied:
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/watch?v=APRh_uZVAQ8


Sellers are hardly at fault.

I know about the dedovshina (the conscript abuse).

But equipment is a problem too. Sure, there are lots of tanks, but mostly are 30, 40 years old, like T-64s, T-72s, T-80s. WE only have 500 T-90s. India has 650! What the hell is that?! Do you know that T-64s, you have to always keep it open, because the loading hole, where you put the shell, it smokes, the smoke fills the cabin, if you don't let it out fast enough, the crew could saffocate, die! It is dangerous to drive those tanks, man!
 
I know about the dedovshina (the conscript abuse).

But equipment is a problem too. Sure, there are lots of tanks, but mostly are 30, 40 years old, like T-64s, T-72s, T-80s. WE only have 500 T-90s. India has 650! What the hell is that?! Do you know that T-64s, you have to always keep it open, because the loading hole, where you put the shell, it smokes, the smoke fills the cabin, if you don't let it out fast enough, the crew could saffocate, die! It is dangerous to drive those tanks, man!

620 To be exact and another 1000 are to be produced locally by Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu.
 
I believe Mil has more chanse here since the IAF has some experience with operating it. I wonder how many helicopters India needs, because Russia can loose to the United States in terms of production capacity.
 
I believe Mil has more chanse here since the IAF has some experience with operating it. I wonder how many helicopters India needs, because Russia can loose to the United States in terms of production capacity.
Hello Shmack,

very true statement indeed. Many purchases LoI's or MoU's have been cancelled or retracted due to production-delivery issues. If according to the pricing of a Mil117 aka 171 - Russia could be the largest supplier of medium Helis for the next ten years in regards to demands - but they can barley deliver more then 8 pc/month.
Malaysia is highy favouring the Mil 171 but the supply rate has hindered a decision so far - and Russia has a bad reputation for "pushing in" ex Armed Forces stock as for being new!!.

Regards
Kruska
 
Right, but still Mi-26 is definitely not a helicopter one can need in huge ammounts. Russia itself operates no more than 30 of these machines. Maybe they will be able to produce several helicopters. Also, the facility where they produce these helicopters (it's called 'Rostvertol', located in Rostov-on-Don) is in quite good condition in comparison to tens of aircraft producing factories all over the former Soviet Union.
 
Right, but still Mi-26 is definitely not a helicopter one can need in huge ammounts. Russia itself operates no more than 30 of these machines. Maybe they will be able to produce several helicopters. Also, the facility where they produce these helicopters (it's called 'Rostvertol', located in Rostov-on-Don) is in quite good condition in comparison to tens of aircraft producing factories all over the former Soviet Union.

Hello Shmack,

yes - I am quite familiar with "Rosoboronexport" and therefore Rostvertol. Actually there is quite big demand for heavies - around 700-800 units need to be replaced by existing users.
The US and Germany need to replace their Ch-53's and variants which already total around 500 units. The USMC has opted to rebuild a limited number of "K" versions but that is heavy $ and not suitable for the present CH-53 users.
It will be an interesting ballgame to watch - in regards to a new Western build heavy, or alternativly the Mi-26T with a European or US partner. China has an MoU for a new batch of Mi-26T's, but will probably try to lisence manufacture on their own.

Regards
Kruska
 
Actually, i won't be surprised if one day India gets Chinese-made Mi-26 squadron huhuh.
Hello Shmack,

If Russia doesn't hurry up - I would be surprised at all :D But due to the sour relationship - it could still remain a good market for Russia. India has already tied up with Eurocopter - so I wouldn't be surprised if these two will come up with new heavy - after all Germany is in real need for a hundred or so, plus India"s 50-80 and it would already pay off.

Regards
Kruska
 
So, will somebody answer me, Shmack, will you explain, why is it okay that Russian boys drive T-64s and T-72s, while Indians are on T-90s? Why we sell our best technology to foreign armies at cheap prices, while our own military suffers with obsolete equipment?

Let China and USA sell to India. I don't care. I want our Army to have good stuff.
 
India has already tied up with Eurocopter - so I wouldn't be surprised if these two will come up with new heavy - after all Germany is in real need for a hundred or so, plus India"s 50-80 and it would already pay off.
Hmm, that's an interesting thought. I wonder if India had any successful joint projects in aviation earlier?
 
So, will somebody answer me, Shmack, will you explain, why is it okay that Russian boys drive T-64s and T-72s, while Indians are on T-90s? Why we sell our best technology to foreign armies at cheap prices, while our own military suffers with obsolete equipment?

Let China and USA sell to India. I don't care. I want our Army to have good stuff.
Hello Prapor,

A pure money and priority issue?!! I don't know your country very well - but I think it needs $$ more urgently for the development of infrastructur then for an Armed Forces that more or less face no external enemy. Most of the problems come down to civil unrests in former Soviet provinces - were the Russian Army might or should not even be involved.

You have a very strong nuke deterrent - which would prevent a military aggression towards Russia for sure - unless due to whatever reason the Ukraine and Russia wan't to get at each other in a conventional warfare - which would bring in inevitably the USA and NATO.

If Russia keeps up its economic development as per present for the next 10 years - I am sure they will have enough money to purchase some nice equipment - if deemed necessary by Moscow.

Regards
Kruska
 
Hmm, that's an interesting thought. I wonder if India had any successful joint projects in aviation earlier?
Hello Shmack,

Oh yes - especially between Germany (Kurt Tank - the Focke Wulf guy) and India. Most prominent cooperation was the development of the HAL Marut and HAL Kiran:

HAL-HF-24-Marut.jpg


The presently jointly developed and build helicopter Dhruv is selling pretty well too. Despite serious development problems in the 90's due to embargo regulations:

800px-ILA_2008_PD_414.JPG


There are other arms related cooperations with Germany and other countries too. AFAIK most of the Mig-21's and Floggers were not build in Russia but in India.

Regards
Kruska
 
Last edited:
Hello Prapor,

A pure money and priority issue?!! I don't know your country very well - but I think it needs $$ more urgently for the development of infrastructur then for an Armed Forces that more or less face no external enemy. Most of the problems come down to civil unrests in former Soviet provinces - were the Russian Army might or should not even be involved.

You have a very strong nuke deterrent - which would prevent a military aggression towards Russia for sure - unless due to whatever reason the Ukraine and Russia wan't to get at each other in a conventional warfare - which would bring in inevitably the USA and NATO.

If Russia keeps up its economic development as per present for the next 10 years - I am sure they will have enough money to purchase some nice equipment - if deemed necessary by Moscow.

Regards
Kruska

A. Russia does have external enemies. Plenty of them. Maybe not now, but in not so far future. You see, we have plenty of two things: empty, habitably, arable land; and natural resources. With the global warming, climate issues, overpopulation in China, India, South-East Asia... We will have to defend ourselves and our property soon. You may say what you want about China not Russia's enemy. But, when you are desperate, you are desperate.

B. Russia does have to be able to get involved in the 'near abroad'. Otherwise NATO will get involved there. I personally, do not like that very much. Plus in Central Asia there is a threat from Islamism, Taliban, and local, particularly Uzbek, terrorists.

So,

C. Russian military has to be rearmed, reorganized, and be ready to face all these challenges, present and future. We (I am a Leitenant of the VDV, Russian Airborne Paratroopers Forces) have to be ready to defend our country. From anyone and anything. Right now, I have to say this, WE ARE NOT. I hope, at least, this deal with France, with the Mistral ships, goes through. If we can't build our own helicopter-carriers, we should buy French.
 
Hello Prapor

A. Russia does have external enemies. Plenty of them. Maybe not now, but in not so far future. You see, we have plenty of two things: empty, habitably, arable land; and natural resources. With the global warming, climate issues, overpopulation in China, India, South-East Asia... We will have to defend ourselves and our property soon. You may say what you want about China not Russia's enemy. But, when you are desperate, you are desperate.
Well right now and for the foreseeable future Russia does not have enemies - or enemy threats that it could not handle via its existing Armed Forces. China simply doesn't have the necessary capability to go to war for the next 10 years neither. So there is no realistic threat IMHO. And India or South East Asia is bit far away from your borders - isn't it?

B. Russia does have to be able to get involved in the 'near abroad'. Otherwise NATO will get involved there. I personally, do not like that very much. Plus in Central Asia there is a threat from Islamism, Taliban, and local, particularly Uzbek, terrorists.
Agreed in regards to Uzbek and Co. but even these "hopeless" countries do not pose a threat - that Russia couldn't deal with. That NATO want's to expand is true - and as long as Russia's economic situation doesn't change to the better - there is simply not much that your country can do.

So,

C. Russian military has to be rearmed, reorganized, and be ready to face all these challenges, present and future. We (I am a Leitenant of the VDV, Russian Airborne Paratroopers Forces) have to be ready to defend our country. From anyone and anything. Right now, I have to say this, WE ARE NOT. I hope, at least, this deal with France, with the Mistral ships, goes through. If we can't build our own helicopter-carriers, we should buy French.
Well congrats for joining the "Воздушно-десантные войска" tough job and low income - but adventure ? hey - just joking okay. But your unit has the same priority and budget preference as the РВСН РФ. So things shouldn't be too bad for that specific unit of yours.

I can understand that it is hard for a former superpower to become somewhat of an underdog - but at present - Russia can't change it. The projected purchase of your helicopter carriers is something that for example I really fail to follow on.

Besides having a still existing fleet at Sewastopol - in order to saveguard the Black Sea and Russias coastal flank - you would need helicopter carriers for what?? Playing world sheriff? - we allready have one who is doing that - even if Russia would have all the $$, it would still take Russia more then ten years to build, or purchase and implement all these units in order to draw even with the USA. - That is chasing a dream IMO.

I would however agree, that the money planed to be invested into these Helicopter carriers - would make far more sense in being invested into the Army and Airforce. Nobody would deny that Russia has a vast borderline and territory - but be realistic - Russia needs an economy first.

BTW, what happened in regards to Col. General Aleksander Kolmakov's announcement in January 2007 - you know all the new good stuff till 2010?

Regards
Kruska
 
Last edited:
Back
Top