US Constitution Means Nothing in PA

5.56X45mm

Milforum Mac Daddy
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08329/930426-100.stm

Council passes controversial bill on stolen guns
Monday, November 24, 2008
By Rich Lord, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pittsburgh City Council gave its first approval today to legislation requiring that anyone report a lost or stolen firearm report that within 24 hours or potentially face a $500 fine.

The 6-1 vote, with two abstentions, sets up a final vote likely next week, which would send the legislation to Mayor Luke Ravenstahl for his signature or veto, and then potentially to the courts, where similar measures have been challenged.

"Who really cares about it being unconstitutional?" said Councilwoman Tonya Payne, a supporter. "This is what's right to do, and if this means that we have to go out and have a court battle, then that's fine ... We have plenty of dead bodies coming up in our streets every single day, and that is unacceptable."

The lone no vote was by Councilman Ricky Burgess, who argued that it would be a "false cure" that would be "particularly cruel" to his violence-plagued northeastern Pittsburgh district.

"This legislation will not strike a blow to straw purchasers," he said. "This ordinance will not be enforced, no loopholes will be closed and no lives will be saved, because no municipality can legally regulate firearms of any kind, at any time, for any reason."


Council's vote is a win for groups engaged in a statewide push to get local rules for reporting lost and stolen guns. The state House rejected a statewide bill in April.

Advocates appearing before council today argued that people called straw purchasers frequently buy guns, then sell them to criminals who could not pass the required background checks. When the guns are used in crimes and traced back to the straw purchaser, he or she just claims the weapon was lost or stolen. Unless that can be disproved, the straw purchaser is off the hook.

"It's a loophole that allows illegal gun traffickers to simply state that a weapon was stolen," said Councilman William Peduto, one of three authors of the bill along with Council President Doug Shields and Councilman Bruce Kraus.

Councilmen Dan Deasy and Patrick Dowd abstained.

Mr. Dowd said that in passing the measure council is "not really effectively changing the situation on the ground," and is inviting a lawsuit.

Philadelphia has sought to enforce similar legislation, but the effort has been tied up in litigation. Legally, the question is whether the state ban on local laws on "the transfer, ownership, transportation or possession" of guns extends to the reporting of lost or stolen firearms.

The Commonwealth Court threw out Philadelphia's measure, and other gun control rules there. The matter is heading for the state Supreme Court.

"To me the question is wide open" on whether such rules are allowed, said Mr. Shields. "This is where you go in [to court] and you make your arguments."

First published on November 24, 2008 at 3:24 pm



Yup. Anti-gunners in government pass illegal laws that take time and effort of pro-gunners to get ruled unconstitutional. The antis know they already are unconstitutional, they just don't care. They'll do what they want, and they even state that they just don't care.

If this isn't a scathing indictment of the total power-hungry controlling nature of these people, well... ... I'd say "I don't know what is" to complete the phrase, but these happen every week.
icon_sad.gif
 
Is there anyone out there sane enough to explain to me why having to report stolen firearms is a bad thing?

At the very worst this law will achieve nothing and at the very best it closes a loophole because people are not going to get away with repeatedly having guns "stolen".
 
Is there anyone out there sane enough to explain to me why having to report stolen firearms is a bad thing?

At the very worst this law will achieve nothing and at the very best it closes a loophole because people are not going to get away with repeatedly having guns "stolen".

The law is both good and bad....

I agree that morons should report their firearms being stolen ASAP. I disagree with them being forced to do so by the law. Being forced to do so by the law is a violation of the 4th & 5th Amendment of the US Constitution.

4th Amendment-The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

5th Amendment-The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

And once again... no law in the United States of America can be passed and enforced in anyway that would violate a citizen's civil and constitutional rights.

When you have people in power state to the public.

"Who really cares about it being unconstitutional?" said Councilwoman Tonya Payne

There are problems...

This isn't about guns. This is about the rights of the people. Hence why I'm against the UK Government and many of the laws they pass. Same here in the States.

The 2nd Amendment issue is one of the largest issues simply because you have so many people against it. It's a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. Something that according to our Founding Father and the Founding Documents are rights that not granted by governments. They are rights that you and I are born with.

Same with the Freedom of Speech. I'm against the Fairness Doctrine. Not because I'm a republican and most of what the Fairness Doctrine targets is conservative talk radio but because the government should have no right to get it's hands into the public forum of speech.

Hell.... I'm against Gay Marriage and Abortion. But in Florida I voted against the state making it illegal. The State should have no right in deciding who can and can't get married. As for abortion. I view it as murder. But I know that the moment you outlaw it it will simply go int the back alleyways and will be done with trusty coat hangers. Also it goes against that person's personal freedom of choice.

Understand MontyB that this is about rights and freedoms. Not simply firearms. This is about Government Intrusion into people's lives and personal rights.



 
The wording is a little unclear.
Are owners supposed to report within 24hours of the actual theft or 24 hours of the discovery of the theft.

If it is the former, an owners only protection is to verify that nothing has been stolen every 24 hours.

If it is the latter then it really does nothing as owners can simply state that they were unaware of the theft. Then they are off the hook.

Personally I am against ANY form of regulation of firearms. The only form I will tolerate is the backround check. Verify the purchaser is not a felon (though felons can get their carry rights back), a former mental patient, or has a conviction of domestic violence (Fenlony or misdemeanor). One the purchaser has passed these tests they should be able to buy 50 guns a day as long as they have the cash for it.

My greatest concern is the glacial eroding of rights in the interests public good. Hate living in a high crime area, move. Can't move cause you can't afford it, go to school, get an education and get a better job. I'm the poster boy for doing what is necessary to complete my education. Worked fulltime, College fulltime, In the National Guard, Married with 2 kids. And my wife stayed home with our children because we felt that their upbrining would be better. I graduated and got a job in 2001 right after the .com bubble burst. I'm tired of people saying that something can't be done. Sorry but that won't work with me. If you desire something badly enough, you will find the time, resources etc to get it.

My 2 cents.
 
The wording is a little unclear.
Are owners supposed to report within 24hours of the actual theft or 24 hours of the discovery of the theft.

If it is the former, an owners only protection is to verify that nothing has been stolen every 24 hours.

If it is the latter then it really does nothing as owners can simply state that they were unaware of the theft. Then they are off the hook.

Personally I am against ANY form of regulation of firearms. The only form I will tolerate is the backround check. Verify the purchaser is not a felon (though felons can get their carry rights back), a former mental patient, or has a conviction of domestic violence (Fenlony or misdemeanor). One the purchaser has passed these tests they should be able to buy 50 guns a day as long as they have the cash for it.

My greatest concern is the glacial eroding of rights in the interests public good. Hate living in a high crime area, move. Can't move cause you can't afford it, go to school, get an education and get a better job. I'm the poster boy for doing what is necessary to complete my education. Worked fulltime, College fulltime, In the National Guard, Married with 2 kids. And my wife stayed home with our children because we felt that their upbrining would be better. I graduated and got a job in 2001 right after the .com bubble burst. I'm tired of people saying that something can't be done. Sorry but that won't work with me. If you desire something badly enough, you will find the time, resources etc to get it.

My 2 cents.

I imagine it is 24 hours of the discovery of the theft, it is really hard to report something you don't know about.
:)

If it is the latter then it really does nothing as owners can simply state that they were unaware of the theft. Then they are off the hook.
You are right but as I see it that works once.

This plan appears to be aimed at stopping people hiding behind "my 27 guns were stolen" on multiple occasions when in reality they are just buying and on selling guns for criminal purposes while hiding behind a loophole.

Now in reality there "could" be a downside to this law in that it may be followed a law that says if you are continually having guns stolen then you are not maintaining them in a safe secure manner in which case you should not be owning them at all.

The only question here is whether or not you believe that a person who is either supplying firearms to the criminal market or just totally incompetent in securing their possessions should be allowed to continually purchase firearms.
 
Last edited:
Is there anyone out there sane enough to explain to me why having to report stolen firearms is a bad thing?

At the very worst this law will achieve nothing and at the very best it closes a loophole because people are not going to get away with repeatedly having guns "stolen".

In South Africa a firearm owner who has a firearm stolen are charged with an offence under the Firearms Control Act, could face a heavy fine and confiscation of all other firearms he/she owns, even if they weren't at fault. The net result is, people are loath to report stolen firearms.
 
Last edited:
In South Africa a firearm owner who has a firearm stolen are charged with an offence under the Firearms Control Act, could face a heavy fine and confiscation of all other firearms he/she owns, even if they weren't at fault. The net result is, people are loath to report stolen firearms.

Yes well that is just a stupid law.
Laws that encourage people to do wrong are an indication of a failed legal system.

Although I don't know for sure I imagine if I was to not report my weapons stolen I would be in for a world of hurt given the collectors license and types of weapons owned, at the very least I would lose my license and collection (which I agree with even if I wouldn't be happy about)
 
Last edited:
Yes well that is just a stupid law.
Laws that encourage people to do wrong are an indication of a failed legal system.

Damn right.

I forgot to mention that a huge number of firearms in criminal hands are from the state, not stolen from civilians as the government try to propagandise. Weapons are sold or stolen from corrupt cops and military, one cop was even found "renting" his issue 9mm Para to criminals!
 
Back
Top