Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners? - Page 8




 
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Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
 
June 10th, 2007  
bulldogg
 
 

Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I would much rather see the Israelis become responsible members of the human race.
No offense Spike but with all of the crap the Palestinians pull and the myriad of terrorist forces arrayed against Israel I cannot believe I just read that.
June 10th, 2007  
Gator
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Gator, I hope that it never comes to dragging persons before the courts. I would much rather see the Israelis become responsible members of the human race.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barrier violates international law
By PETER LIPPMAN
GUEST COLUMNIST
This week the International Court of Justice is meeting at The Hague to consider the legality of the "separation wall" that Israel is building in the West Bank. During the hearings, more than a dozen governments are presenting statements against the barrier. While the court's non-binding conclusions will not change the course of the wall, the structure is indeed in violation of international law, and it should be removed.

Read More: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinio...lippman25.html
Elections in the United States of America are not really that far off, better leadership in the United States of America can go a long way towards peace in the Middle East.
Israel has to feel they have something to lose before they will make major concessions towards a lasting peace.
The Palestinians have already lost much, as they have no homeland at the present, and are in my opinion treated as second class citizens with few rights.

Israel right now in my own opinion merely wants the Palestinians to just go away, and I do not see that as the road towards any lasting peace in the Middle East.
June 10th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Bulldogg, Firstly I ask you to please read all of the posts since I was dragged into this "argy bargy" and you will see why it is so.

Then type the words "Israel and mistreatment" into your search bar.
As I posted earlier even moderate Israeli politicians are aware that they are liable for crimes against humanity.

Yes, I am aware that Israel is an ally of the USA,.... so why are US citzens being jailed and tortured in Israeli jails for protesting against Israeli war crimes? This is no ratbag Jane Fonda "one off" thing. Most are guilty of no more than visiting relatives. Read:http://www.ameu.org/summary1.asp?iid=56

Don't allow the fact, that Israel is presently an ally of convenience, fool you that they like the US.

They have WMD, why hasn't anyone done anything about them?

Never lose sight of the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Having said all of that, don't go getting the idea that I condone terrorism, nothing is further from the truth. But if we want to have any credibility in the world, and we are going to fight terrorism, we must be seen to fight it no matter who is employing it. That means our allies too.

World opinion is slowly favouring the Palestinians, and it is only as a result of the way in which the Israelis are treating them. All ready the International court has ruled that the Israeli wall is both immoral and illegal.

Lastly, Remember what happened in South Africa.
The Palestinians will never defeat the Israelis, but eventually, World opinion will.
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Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
June 10th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Padre, today I had the chance to ask about the Jews alleged "ownership" of Israel.

My informant, (a retired lecturer in theology and also my cousin) ventured the opinion. The "Promised Land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, this is not exclusive to the Jews, as the Arabs are also descendants of Abraham ??

This then led me to Google for some material and I found this:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b7b_1180614298
which is very sobering and well worth watching, when viewed in the context of our present debate.
June 10th, 2007  
Padre
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Padre, today I had the chance to ask about the Jews alleged "ownership" of Israel.

My informant, (a retired lecturer in theology and also my cousin) ventured the opinion. The "Promised Land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, this is not exclusive to the Jews, as the Arabs are also descendants of Abraham ??
OK, class is now in session:

1. Abram (before getting the name Abraham) had a wife named Sarah who was barren and her barreness was a source of pain and embarrassment. Abram had sex with one of his slaves named Hagar and she gave birth to a son Ishmael who Arabs/Arab Muslims claim a blood-line link to Abraham - and by extension a link to God's promise to the descendents of Abraham ie. the land of Israel/Palestine.

2. Several years after the birth of Ishmael, Sarah became pregnant by Abram and gave birth to Isaac to who the Jewish people claim a blood-link to Abraham.

3. When Ishmael was 13 and Isaac not yet born GOD said:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac" (Gen. 17:20-21).

4. The "promise" of the land which accompanied or caused the name change from 'Abram' to 'Abraham' was TO ISAAC and Abraham's descendents through Isaac NOT ISHMAEL who was banished by Abraham with his mother into the desert.

5. Homework for the class is to digest these:

http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/arab.htm

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Perio...holylandi.html

http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/..._Holy_City.asp


6. Class dismissed.
June 10th, 2007  
bulldogg
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Never lose sight of the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
When that freedom fighter employs children as suicide-murder bombers and when that freedom fighter targets civilians he is no longer a freedom fighter, it is when they employ these tactics they cross the line into scumbag ******* terrorist.

As for the rest I have found when discussing religion and/or politics you will never change anyone's mind so I won't attempt it with you or anyone else for that matter. My post was simply lodging a formal complaint as I see Israel in a different light given their history, nothing to do with being an ally or not.

The Palestinians deserved to have their land taken away from them and given to the Jews as a homeland when they and their leaders colluded with Hitler during WWII... IMHO. Certain groups of people have had their land taken away from them in the course of history by many different players and it all happens for a reason. Indians both North and South America, Aborigines, Maori, Palestinians, Africans sold into slavery, the Confederate States... I look at it as Darwin's law of survival of the fittest in a very human context. Political correctness be damned, the most advanced and hence fittest members of the species supplanted those weaker and thus less fit to carry on. End of story. Those members of the species displaced still in existence are better for it. The increased life spans and the fact none of them as a whole want to return to living in huts and dying of diseases prevented and/or cured by their "oppressor's" medicine and technology.

In various wars since its inception Israel has proven itself the fittest of the tribes residing in the Middle East. Against overwhelming odds and against determined enemies they have secured breeding rights no different than a bull elephant seal who runs off pretenders to his harem and slice of beachfront property. Our intellect does not preclude our animal drives and the drive to secure land for us and ours is primal and not to be denied. In fact rather than rise above it, our intellect serves as a tool in our fulfillment of that drive.

Just musing outloud.
June 10th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Bulldogg, So, you think that "Might makes right"?

Nah,.... I'm afraid I don't necessarily agree. Yes there have been cases where it has worked to the advantage of the oppressed but it's not the way I'd want to live, or you, I'll bet. It's all too easy to take that approach when you think that you are in no danger of it happening to you.

On this Forum is a thread pertaining to the American Militia (A rifleman behind every blade of grass etc) What we are seeing in Israel is the Palestinian militia in action.

I don't agree with using unwitting children to kill others, but what you must realise is that it is attitudes such as expressed here, that drive other people to such extreme measures*. When a person has no reasonable hope of removing their oppressor it can drive them to extraordinary measures. I'll guarantee that they took no pleasure in doing what they did. And here's us sitting well fed, fat and happy in our living rooms condemning them.

*Worse things happen in the USA on a regular basis, and often for no more reason than the perpetrator wants to become infamous.

You say that no one can change a person's mind, not true at all, as I have been reading up on Padre's lessons and found that it appears the Jews were promised the Holy land. This has not completely changed my mind on the whole subject but I am willing to concede the point.

Also it appears that I have been using poor terminology which hasn't helped. Where I have been pointing the finger at "Jews" per se, it appears that the people I should have been talking about are what are termed as "Zionists".

None of the above has altered my view on the morality of the Palestinian question in the least degree.
June 10th, 2007  
bulldogg
 
 






Nowhere else in the world do parents do this crap.

I see nothing but terrorists begetting terrorists.


And for everyone's reading pleasure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_s...inian_conflict

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/02/isrlpa9591.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=17707

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp441.htm
June 10th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Yep, they love to boast about it. How much of it actually happens is anybodies guess, but most of these photos are propaganda, done to instil hatred into the kids, and while I don't condone it, I can understand why they do it.http://atheism.about.com/b/a/130187.htm

I'm not even going to bother starting a collection of sites that back what I'm saying as the 'net is absolutely flooded with images from both sides and all we will do, is bore the tits off one another.

Forget the propaganda, and the endless images of people killing others. Just look at it from a moral point of view. Put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians for a minute, suddenly there's no contest.

It's just morally wrong, and if you can't see that, there's no use pursuing the issue. The similarities with the Nazi experience alone should start ringing some alarm bells somewhere.

People don't just go blowing themselves to pieces for the entertainment value, they must be driven to it. These people are at the end of their tether.
June 10th, 2007  
major liability
 
 
Ever heard the expression "Move your feet, lose your seat"?

That's what should've happened with the Jews, but since Europe was feeling sad for them because of the holocaust, they got a free slice of land in the middle of a bunch of countries that hate their guts. All because of what an ancient religious text says. Religion shouldn't even factor into this. I don't care if your ancient book says you're the best thing ever and God loves you the most. It means nothing.

When I think about what it would be like if I was Palestinian, completely out of hope and treated like **** by the Israelis, suddenly blowing myself up for Allah seems a lot easier... and more gratifying.
 


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