Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?

[Donkey]

Ah the hypocrisy in this thread is amazing...

All humans will work the pity party angle, if you never have you are full of it. The large problem, you see, is that everyone in here views everyone as separate or different from themselves; wrapped up in their addiction to emotion. We will never be able to get along if you have to categorize someone and call what they are doing anything different than what you yourself take part in, only perhaps you claim it under a different name.

Question, why is it that people must use "religions" to "save" themselves; should they not do this on their own or is it just the easy way out to put faith in someone or something else to do it for them?

 

[Gator]

it appears the Jews were promised the Holy land.

Genesis Chapter 12
The call of Abram, and the promise made to him. He sojourneth in Chanaan, and then by occasion of a famine, goeth down to Egypt.

12:1. And the Lord said to Abram: Go forth out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and out of thy father's house, and come into the land which I shall show thee.

12:2. And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed.

12:3. I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee, and IN THEE shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

12:4. So Abram went out as the Lord had commanded him, and Lot went with him: Abram was seventy-five years old when he went forth from Haran.

12:5. And he took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all the substance which they had gathered, and the souls which they had gotten in Haran: and they went out to go into the land of Chanaan. And when they were come into it,


12:6. Abram passed through the country unto the place of Sichem, as far as the noble vale: now the Chanaanite was at that time in the land.

12:7. And the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him: To thy seed will I give this land. And he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

Now, if one follows the Bible for ownership of Israel then one must also follow the Bible for god kicking the Jews out of Israel.

Amos Chapter 9

The certainty of the desolation of Israel: the restoring of the tabernacle of David, and the conversion of the Gentiles to the church; which shall flourish for ever.

9:1. I saw the Lord standing upon the altar, and he said: Strike the hinges, and let the lintels be shook: for there is covetousness in the head of them all, and I will slay the last of them with the sword: there shall be no flight for them: they shall flee, and he that shall flee of them shall not be delivered.
Vidi Dominum stantem super altare et dixit percute cardinem et commoveantur superliminaria avaritia enim in capite omnium et novissimum eorum in gladio interficiam non erit fuga eis fugiet et non salvabitur ex eis qui fugerit
9:2. Though they go down even to hell, thence shall my hand bring them out: and though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down.
Si descenderint usque ad infernum inde manus mea educet eos et si ascenderint usque ad caelum inde detraham eos
9:3. And though they be hid in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them away from thence: and though they hide themselves from my eyes in the depth of the sea, there will I command the serpent and he shall bite them.
Et si absconditi fuerint in vertice Carmeli inde scrutans auferam eos et si celaverint se ab oculis meis in fundo maris ibi mandabo serpenti et mordebit eos
9:4. And if they go into captivity before their enemies, there will I command the sword, and it shall kill them. And I will set my eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
Et si abierint in captivitatem coram inimicis suis ibi mandabo gladio et occidet eos et ponam oculos meos super eos in malum et non in bonum
9:5. And the Lord the God of hosts is he who toucheth the earth, and it shall melt: and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up as a river, and shall run down as the river of Egypt.
Et Dominus Deus exercituum qui tangit terram et tabescet et lugebunt omnes habitantes in ea et ascendet sicut rivus omnis et defluet sicut fluvius Aegypti
9:6. He that buildeth his ascension in heaven, and hath founded his bundle upon the earth: who calleth the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth, the Lord is his name.
Qui aedificat in caelo ascensionem suam et fasciculum suum super terram fundavit qui vocat aquas maris et effundit eas super faciem terrae Dominus nomen eius
9:7. Are not you as the children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel, saith the Lord? did not I bring up Israel, out of the land of Egypt: and the Philistines out of Cappadocia, and the Syrians out of Cyrene?
Numquid non ut filii Aethiopum vos estis mihi filii Israhel ait Dominus numquid non Israhel ascendere feci de terra Aegypti et Palestinos de Cappadocia et Syros de Cyrene
As the children of the Ethiopians... That is, as black as they, by your iniquities.
9:8. Behold the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth: but yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
Ecce oculi Domini Dei super regnum peccans et conteram illud a facie terrae verumtamen conterens non conteram domum Iacob dicit Dominus
9:9. For behold I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, as corn is sifted in a sieve: and there shall not a little stone fall to the ground.
Ecce enim ego mandabo et concutiam in omnibus gentibus domum Israhel sicut concutitur in cribro et non cadet lapillus super terram
9:10. All the sinners of my people shall fall by the sword: who say: The evils shall not approach, and shall not come upon us.
In gladio morientur omnes peccatores populi mei qui dicunt non adpropinquabit et non veniet super nos malum
9:11. In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen: and I will close up the breaches of the walls thereof, and repair what was fallen: and I will rebuild it as in the days of old.
In die illo suscitabo tabernaculum David quod cecidit et reaedificabo aperturas murorum eius et ea quae corruerant instaurabo et reaedificabo eum sicut diebus antiquis
9:12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all nations, because my name is invoked upon them: saith the Lord that doth these things.
Ut possideant reliquias Idumeae et omnes nationes eo quod invocatum sit nomen meum super eos dicit Dominus faciens haec
9:13. Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when the ploughman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed: and the mountains shall drop sweetness, and every hill shall be tilled.
Ecce dies veniunt dicit Dominus et conprehendet arator messorem et calcator uvae mittentem semen et stillabunt montes dulcedinem et omnes colles culti erunt
9:14. And I will bring back the captivity of my people Israel: and they shall build the abandoned cities, and inhabit them: and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine of them: and shall make gardens, and eat the fruits of them. And I will plant them upon their own land: and I will no more pluck them out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.
Et convertam captivitatem populi mei Israhel et aedificabunt civitates desertas et habitabunt et plantabunt vineas et bibent vinum earum et facient hortos et comedent fructus eorum et plantabo eos super humum suam et non evellam eos ultra de terra sua quam dedi eis dicit Dominus Deus tuus

As I read the Bible, Acts 15 spells out just when the Jews are to have their homeland returned.......

Acts Chapter 15
A dissension about circumcision. The decision and letter of the council of Jerusalem.

15:11. But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.
Sed per gratiam Domini Iesu credimus salvari quemadmodum et illi
15:12. And all the multitude held their peace: and they heard Barnabas and Paul telling what great signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Tacuit autem omnis multitudo et audiebant Barnaban et Paulum narrantes quanta fecisset Deus signa et prodigia in gentibus per eos
15:13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me.
Et postquam tacuerunt respondit Iacobus dicens viri fratres audite me
15:14. Simon hath related how God first visited to take to the Gentiles, a people to his name.
Simeon narravit quemadmodum primum Deus visitavit sumere ex gentibus populum nomini suo
15:15. And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written:
Et huic concordant verba prophetarum sicut scriptum est
15:16. After these things I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down: and the ruins thereof I will rebuild. And I will set it up:
Post haec revertar et aedificabo tabernaculum David quod decidit et diruta eius reaedificabo et erigam illud
15:17. That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all nations upon whom my name is invoked, saith the Lord, who doth these things.
Ut requirant ceteri hominum Dominum et omnes gentes super quas invocatum est nomen meum dicit Dominus faciens haec
15:18. To the Lord was his own work known from the beginning of the world.
Notum a saeculo est Domino opus suum
15:19. For which cause, judge that they who from among the Gentiles are converted to God are not to be disquieted:
Propter quod ego iudico non inquietari eos qui ex gentibus convertuntur ad Deum

....... upon the second coming of Christ.

Source for Bible Quotes http://www.newadvent.org/

 

[senojekips]

Ever heard the expression "Move your feet, lose your seat"?

That's what should've happened with the Jews, but since Europe was feeling sad for them because of the holocaust, they got a free slice of land in the middle of a bunch of countries that hate their guts. All because of what an ancient religious text says. Religion shouldn't even factor into this. I don't care if your ancient book says you're the best thing ever and God loves you the most. It means nothing.

When I think about what it would be like if I was Palestinian, completely out of hope and treated like **** by the Israelis, suddenly blowing myself up for Allah seems a lot easier... and more gratifying.

Well, ML,.... You and I seem to share pretty similar views on this issue. My initial argument was based on your quoted reasoning above. This is also the view of the International Court in the Hague, and as much as I now agree that there is biblical evidence of the Jews being promised The Holy Land, I personally feel that it has more than passed it's expiry date.

Then we have Gator's example where it appears that according to the Bible this promise is not yet due.

It also never ceases to amaze me how most westerners still regard suicide bombers as deranged, (and quite rightly so) yet they never take two seconds to consider what it was that drove them to these extreme solutions.

And as much as Padre supports the rights of the Jews, (quite rightly so) it is quite obvious to me that there must be some doubts in his mind as the the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis or he would never have posed the original question as to whether the west is enabling it's future executioners. On this point, I say, "Yes, without a doubt". Then of course, there is the matter that in the future we are going to be judged for all of this, whether it be by God or mankind, and that judgement will condemn us.

Personally I don't wish to be remembered that way.

 

[Padre]

fftopic:

1. If anyone in this thread or on this forum wants to post a thread debating the land claims of either or both the Israelites and palestinians, please start that thread somewhere else and I promise to make a contribution.

2. THIS THREAD HOWEVER, is to welcome comments in response to a newspaper writer's opinion piece that sounds the alarm to Western Societies complacency towards internal dangers posed by Islamic immigration into aforementioned Western Societies such as Australia, Britain, Europe and the USA - not the Middle East.

3. Senojekips, I can't respond to your quotation of Gator as he is on my ignore list primarily because he as a behavioural problem of posting huge slabs of text (eg. statutes), then quoting those slabs out of context, thinking he has made a point or won an argument by doing so. Am I right on this occasion that he has done it again? - probably quoting huge slabs of the Bible, attaching his own interpretation though he does not have any Degrees in Scripture, Theology or Religios History? Am I correct? He probably even quoted the orginal biblical text in the wrong language - Am I right? :roll:

4. My own contribution to the Israeli right to its present territory stands - with its appropriate links and references. However that is not the topic at hand. The last post, scrolling up, that was on topic was Bulldogg's which graphically reminds us why we in the West should be alarmed as those sort of pics, 10 or more years from now, will not be from Palestine but from Sydney, Chicago, West London, Paris, Berlin............

5. A few years ago, Muslims killed Western men, women, children, and babies in Bali, on beach resorts and restaurants. What do tourists in Bali have to do with Israel/Palestine. They hate us and want us wiped off the earth and who they can't kill they'll leave to their next generation to finish the job. The leaders of these extremists are often, as the journalist's article points out, are not good Muslims themselves but successfully recruit idealists to do the suiciding and killing for them. Perversion at its highest and its coming to a town near you.

 

[Gator]

Well, ML,.... You and I seem to share pretty similar views on this issue. My initial argument was based on your quoted reasoning above. This is also the view of the International Court in the Hague, and as much as I now agree that there is biblical evidence of the Jews being promised The Holy Land, I personally feel that it has more than passed it's expiry date.

The Vicar of Christ on Earth at the time, Pope John Paul II, during a 2001 visit to the Holy Land publically called for a Palestinian Homeland while in Bethlehem.

 

[pixiedustboo]

And more than one-quarter of young US Muslims believe suicide bombings can be justified in some circumstances.

I believe anything can be justified in any circumstance for some people. People think differently and many can talk very slick and become believeable...and have others supporting them, no matter how horrid the topic could be.

I understand, in a way, how some of these people could believe it to be justified. I do NOT agree with them in ANY CASE - but I understand how they can *think* that way, as horribly wrong as they are IMO.

 

[senojekips]

Now that is more like it Padre. I guess that is what comes of coming into a discussion to answer one point made by a previous poster. I was way out of my depth with the Biblical stuff and getting more perplexed by the moment. It appears to me that the Bible like the law is largely a matter of interpretation, and I really can't be bothered with the semantics of it all.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly,

(1) Muslims per se, seem to have a problem with accepting any other religious groups.
(2) It seems to me that there is some fundamental flaw in their religion that seems to encourage a very unhealthy fanaticism.

 

[Gator]

Now that is more like it Padre. I guess that is what comes of coming into a discussion to answer one point made by a previous poster. I was way out of my depth with the Biblical stuff and getting more perplexed by the moment.

Your own interpretation of the Bible seemed well-founded in my opinion. Religion is a personal matter after all......

(2) It seems to me that there is some fundamental flaw in their religion that seems to encourage a very unhealthy fanaticism.

..... and in my opinion having others (and I mean anyone, from any Religion on Earth) interpret the bible is what can then be used to turn people into fanatics.

History has shown this to be the case with Religion on this Earth.

Your own god, if you have one, may end up looking at your own deeds while you lived on Earth, not how you followed Religious Rules imposed upon you by someone else on this Earth..... just depends on what you believe in the end, and in my own opinion how you walked the Earth while you were here.

 

[pixiedustboo]

Rules imposed upon you by someone else on this Earth..... just depends on what you believe in the end, and in my own opinion how you walked the Earth while you were here.

Well said Gator.

 

[senojekips]

Your own interpretation if the Bible seemed well-founded in my opinion. Religion is a personal matter after all......

I couldn't agree more Gator.

..... and in my opinion having others (and I mean anyone, from any Religion on Earth) interpret the bible is what can then be used to turn people into fanatics.

Yes, we've had a few of them too,... Jonestown, Waco etc.

The old saying, "All things in moderation" applies to religion too. Personally the idea of Buddhism appeals to me more than anything else.

 

[Padre]

Hey, I really like where the last three posts are going. They're so liberating and feel good. Taken to their logical conclusion that means we can:

1. Ban umpires and referees in sports, be it basketball, grid iron, baseball, football, rugby, tennis. Who the hell do umpires and referees think they are, interfering with each athlete's and player's personal interpretation of the rule book. Just because they have a whistle doesn't give them any authority or superior knowledge of the rules of their sport. Each player does whatever he likes and calls their own free kicks, penalties, fouls, goals, times, etc.

2. And while we are at it, lets abolish the judiciary, judges and juries. Who the hell do they think they are interfering with our individual interpretation of common, civil, criminal law and constitutional law. To each his own we say. Just because those Supreme Court justices wear gowns and do law studies doesn't make them experts or anything, and they have no authority over individual interpretation of the laws of the land.

3. And while we are at it lets liberate children from the yoke of their parents. Children should be free to interpret the laws of their domestic home as they see fit. Who the hell do parents think they are setting times for bed and what you can or can't watch on T.V.

4. And cops, who the hell do they think they are telling us if we've violated the law or not. Where do they get their authority? Each individual should determine if they are drunk when driving, or if they can pinch someone's DVD recorder.

5. (insert priest, rabbi, iman, pope, bishop, pastor, elder, lama, jedi knight, warlock, depending on your religion)

yep anarchy, civil or religious, it's the way to go, it feels so good, yesum, let the Age of Aquarius reign and the power of Flower blossom. hmmmmm

*start mammas and the pappas music*

 

[senojekips]

Do I detect a trace of sarcasm there Padre?

Looking back at the last three posts, I fail so see a great connection to your answer(s). Nobody seemed to be advocating anything that could elicit the responses you gave.

In Post 88 (Gators reply to me)
(1)He expressed his opinion that his interpretation of the Bible was not so different to mine. This is his opinion, and although you may not agree with it, I feel that he is quite entitled to express that opinion. (There would be many others of similar belief no doubt)

(2) If I read this next point correctly he is stating that people should believe their own inner feelings on the interpretation of the Bible, and I presume anything else we are told by others as this has caused a lot of dissent and heartbreak in the past. (not to mention murder and endless mayhem)

Unless your mind reads something else into these statements that I fail to see, they are in my view both perfectly legitimate comments expressed on his own behalf.

Post 89.
The poster seems to agree with Gator. Once again a perfectly legitimate comment. ???

Post 90
(1) I would look absolutely stupid if I was to say that I did NOT agree with my own views. And where I come from, religion IS certainly a personal matter.

(2) I named two of many relatively recent slaughters that had their origins in "religion" (odd though they were).

(3) Having lived and worked with a number of Buddhists, I do have a greater admiration for the tenets of Buddhism than any other religion that I know, but not wishing to commit myself to this system of belief I merely try to get through life causing as little harm and misery as I can.

I may be far from perfect, but I do try to behave somewhat better than the average "Christian" that I run into.

 

[bulldogg]

Peace and love this... my kinda male bonding.

 

[Del Boy]

Good Afternoon Gentlemen - been busy I see.


They are trying to obliterate me.

Get over it.

They've done it before.

Its your own fault.

What was I doing wrong?

You were breathing.



COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.

 

[Del Boy]

Padre

You sure are working well. Those are terrible negative experiences you have had. There is no excuse whatsoever for such extremist nonsense, especially from the Hassedim.

As it happens, I too have had one uncomfortable situation in Israel, with young off duty soldiers, involving my crucifix being on display when I swam at the pool. Nothing was said to me, and I do not speak their language, but attitudes were obvious. If it had not been for the language barrier i would have liked to have told them what a weakness it is to not know who your friends are. Isolated incident. They can certainly be spiky and defensive, but hey, backs to the wall and all that. Personally that would not suit me, but my experience is different. I am a comfortable Englishman,

Other side of the coin; one of my very best friends, a mature Irish Roman Catholic priest, with whom I had met Pope John Paul 11, and been to Lourdes on a number of occasions, one day suddenly announced, I believe out of frustration with communism, - ' you know Del, sometimes I wonder whether we joined World War 11 on the wrong side'.
Another time, he interpreted St Peter's first days after Jesus's accension as 'he converted 3000 HARDENED Jews'.

As for forgiveness, I believe that is for the victim to provide. I can't forgive someone for what he does to another. However, my family here once entertained, for a week, a visiting Japanese Roman Catholic priest who was from Hiroshima; filling in at our church, whilst working in Rome.
He was a most holy and forgiving man, and I thought that was really impressive.

On another occasion I was in Poland on business with Max Peretz, a London business man, known in his circle as 'The Count', very cultivated and smooth. He was Jewish and Peretz St in Warsaw was named after his uncle, the poet . It was his first visit to his Poland since WW11, and the communist authorities were celebrating his arrival. They took us on visits to the Shrine at Chestakova, Yasla Gura, where Pope John Paul 11 had spent his early years,( this was 1965 ) and Auchswitz on the same day. Max had already refused to land and stop for fuel in Germany.

As we approached the steps of the Cathedral, Max, myself and our Communist minders, a young man, obviously an enthusiastic christian, tried to meet us to offer a tiny Bible. Our guide intervened and roughly brushed him aside saying - 'I reject that.' But before they could hurry the man away, Max interrupted and said 'No, wait - I will accept that from you.' The communists did not approve.

That taught me something about human nature.
In Hungary an armed airport policeman spat at his British passport. Max told him it was the greatest in the World and slapped his face. He was arrested and held for some time.


COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.

 

[senojekips]

Peace and love this... my kinda male bonding.

I will only be as peaceful as others will allow.:wink:

 

[Del Boy]

Try this for size. Well, I liked it.

7 DEADLY POLITICAL SINS.


HYPOCRISY

DOUBLE-STANDARDS

BIGOTRY

PROPAGANDA

MISINFORMATION

DENIAL

TIPPING THE WHIPPER

A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE



COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST

 

[bulldogg]

"Tipping the Whipper"? Oi, ya got me with that one. Does it mean anything like "Flogging the Dolphin"?? Do tell.

 

[Del Boy]

Good Question Bulldog, and you put it very well, even tho you are not on the button. I reckon you'll appreciate the answer.

The Roman Galley is crossing the sea; the drummer controls the stroke, and whenever he wants to put on speed, he lifts the beat and the whipper takes over and whips up the Galley Slaves ( shall we say, in this case, merely for local colour, Jewish galley slaves - possible, d'ya think). The galley slaves sweat and toil, manacled into the boat as they are. Eventually the reach land, and their feet are freed so that they can disembark. In single file they shuffle down the gang-plank, and as they do, one newbie leans towards his nearest comrade and whispers -
' Do you think we should tip the Whipper ?'

Feel free to remember it.

 

[senojekips]

HYPOCRISY

DOUBLE-STANDARDS

BIGOTRY

PROPAGANDA

MISINFORMATION

DENIAL

TIPPING THE WHIPPER

A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE

All you need to do is add GREED and SELF INTEREST, and you have named most of the vital attributes necessary to make a true politician.

Billy Connolly summed it up pretty well when he said, "The very fact that a man shows an interest in politics, should be the one thing that precludes him from ever being allowed to become involved in it"