Unlikely Victories.

S

SHERMAN

Active member
This dose not completely belong in the hardware zone, but there is reason for me posting it here. To remind everyone that hardware diffrences sometimes melt away due to better experience or command.
Here Ill ask you to post about victories achieved against superior hardware, be it air -combat, tank battles, sea-warfare, or infantry warfare.

Ill start off with the following:

During the 6 days war Israel sent its long range attack bombers, the Vautour SO.4050 to attack H3, the most eastern Iraqi airbase. The Vautour is a slow, big, underpowered plane. During one of the strikes against H3, a dogfight between the atacking Vautours and Iraqi Hunter aicraft developed. The Hunter is a british made, highly manuverable dogfighter. Despite the great disadvanage, one of the Vautour ppilots, Cpt. Zohar Ben-Zion managed to shoot down one of the hunters.
 
two cases of air to air combat spring to mind, both involving the same aircraft....the shorts sunderland flying boat

300px-Sunder5.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorts_Sunderland

On 3 April 1940, a Sunderland operating off Norway was attacked by six German Junkers Ju 88 fighters, and managed to shoot one down, damage another enough to send it off to a forced landing, and drive off the rest. The Germans were supposed to have nicknamed the Sunderland the "Fliegende Stachelschweine" (Flying Porcupine).
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This reputation was enhanced by a savage air battle between eight Ju 88C long-range heavy fighters and a single RAAF Sunderland Mark III on June 2, 1943. There were eleven crewmen on board the Sunderland, including nine Australians and two British. The crew was on an antisubmarine patrol and also searching for remains of an airliner that had left Gibraltar the day before, to be shot down over the Bay of Biscay with the loss of all crew and passengers, including British film star Leslie Howard, known for his starring role in The Scarlet Pimpernel and supporting work in Gone with the Wind.

In the late afternoon, one of the crew spotted the eight Ju 88s. Bombs and depth charges were dumped while Walker redlined the engines. Two Ju 88s made passes at the flying boat, one from each side, scoring hits while the Sunderland went through wild "corkscrew" evasive maneuvers. The fighters managed to knock out one engine. On the third pass of the fighters, the top-turret gunner managed to shoot one down. Another Ju 88 disabled the tail turret, but the next fighter that made a pass was bracketed by the top and nose turrets and shot down as well.

Still another fighter attacked, smashing the Sunderland's radio gear, wounding most of the crew in varying degrees and mortally wounding one of the side gunners. A Ju 88 tried to attack from the rear, but the tail turret gunner had managed to regain some control over the turret and shot down the German fighter. The surviving fighters pressed home their attacks, despite the losses. The nose gunner chewed up one of the fighters and set one of its engines on fire. Two more of the attackers were thoroughly shot up, and the other two finally decided they'd had enough and departed. Luftwaffe records indicate these were the only two that made it back to base.

The Sunderland was a wreck. The crew threw everything they could overboard and nursed the aircraft back to the Cornish coast, where Walker managed to land and beach it. The crew waded ashore, carrying their dead comrade, while the surf broke up the Sunderland. The pilot, Walker, received the Distinguished Service Order, and several of the other crew received medals as well. Walker went on to a ground job, while the rest of the crew were given a new Sunderland. That Sunderland and its crew disappeared without a trace over the Bay of Biscay two months later, after reporting by radio that they were under attack by six Ju 88s.
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the battle of Chancellorsville in the American Civil War. background: union (northern) army is at approx. 110,000 men strong. confederates (southern) army is maybe 80,000 strong. the union marches into Virginia, into a thick wooded area called the Wilderness. they march in, set up camp, and go to bed for the night. Gen. Lee (southern commander) decides to divide his army in half, keeping one half with him in front of the Union army, and sending the other half, under the command of Gen. Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson :rambo: , to attack the Union's left flank. well, the attack goes perfectly, Jackson pops up on the Union left flank and routes a Union army corps (the 11th). however, Jackson is mistakenly (and ultimately fatally) shot by his own troops.


the battle of the cowpens in the American Revolutionary War.

the battle of Lake Erie in the war of 1812

the Peninsular Campaign of the American Civil War

the European Resistance of WW2

the Vietnam War

thats all i can think of for now, but there are dozens more in American History alone
 
Well, you have to kind of determine what you mean by unlikely victories over technology.

For example, you could say the N. Vietnamese because they where technologically outclassed, but they paid for their victory in the millions of dead vietnamese whereas America suffered only 50,000 dead.
 
Chuck Yeager in a P-51 shoots down a Luftwaffe jet, the ME-262. Is one particular battle that comes to mind.

Another would be in Mogadishu, combat-trained and street equipped gangs shoot down a black hawk with an RPG. Twice. Once you could call lucky.
 
Put enough RPG's into the air and you're bound to hit something, but point taken. I would mention the Anglo Boer War, but we were really technologically superior to the Brits until they started using naval guns.
We were using smokeless powder in highlyu accurate Mausers while the Brits had a mix of Martini Henry's (single Shot) and Lee Metford/Enfields (not smokeless powder and not very long range). The Boere gave the British a good whipping in the beginning, but the British took some of their very large naval guns and mounted them on tracks/wheels and things started going South really fast, still, with the older cannons the Boere had, they managed to give the British the runaround for a while.


Not sure if this would fit into the unlikely victory (based on hardware) catagory. The Brits numbered close to 300 000 and the Boere were only around 50 000 men strong.
 
Tend to agree with bushpig. If you read CWO Durants book "In the Company of Hero's". He mentions the high volume of RPG fire during the mission. And Mogadishu was flat full of RPG's. So it was more of a "Golden BB" theory with RPG's instead of small arms. But yeah point taken.
 
Well, the Somalis did shoot down 2 choppers and hit another but not seriously enough that it made back to the base. I realize that they were, more than likely, lucky shots, however it's pretty damn hard to hit 3 moving targets in the air with a 'dumb', non-heat-seeking grenade launcher like an RPG.
 
Whispering Death said:
Well, you have to kind of determine what you mean by unlikely victories over technology.

For example, you could say the N. Vietnamese because they where technologically outclassed, but they paid for their victory in the millions of dead vietnamese whereas America suffered only 50,000 dead.
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But they still won. The means justifies the end?
 
Welshwarrior said:
But they still won. The means justifies the end?
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No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. Technology is only one factor in warfare. Mass is another factor and is, in fact, one of the origional principles of warfare as enumerated by Clauswitz.

So in Vietnam, mass overpowered technology but is that really an unlikely victory? Or is it really just simply the MASS overpowering the numerical multipliers that technology gives, which is what happened.
 
Oh, and at "Blackhawk Down" the helos where flying low and slow, it isn't that difficult of a shot and RPGs are capable of downing a helo.
 
Whispering Death said:
Welshwarrior said:
But they still won. The means justifies the end?
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No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. Technology is only one factor in warfare. Mass is another factor and is, in fact, one of the origional principles of warfare as enumerated by Clauswitz.

So in Vietnam, mass overpowered technology but is that really an unlikely victory? Or is it really just simply the MASS overpowering the numerical multipliers that technology gives, which is what happened.
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the north vietnamese didn't defeat the US forces, the US media & public opinion did.
 
chewie_nz said:
Whispering Death said:
Welshwarrior said:
But they still won. The means justifies the end?
Click to expand...

No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. Technology is only one factor in warfare. Mass is another factor and is, in fact, one of the origional principles of warfare as enumerated by Clauswitz.

So in Vietnam, mass overpowered technology but is that really an unlikely victory? Or is it really just simply the MASS overpowering the numerical multipliers that technology gives, which is what happened.
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the north vietnamese didn't defeat the US forces, the US media & public opinion did.
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No? Who took South Vietnam? The Press?
 
it's an over simplification, sure but public opinion surely didn't do the cause any good. the US was always restraining themselves in relation to numbers of troops stationed in country. trying to win with tech rather than sheer numbers.

the US left, charlie moved in.
 
chewie_nz said:
it's an over simplification, sure but public opinion surely didn't do the cause any good. the US was always restraining themselves in relation to numbers of troops stationed in country. trying to win with tech rather than sheer numbers.

the US left, charlie moved in.
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Not what the history books say.
 
Nah, Chewie is actually right. So long as the USA stood guard over S.Vietnam the country was independent and 'relatively' stable. When the US public ran out of "stomach" for the war they pulled out and S.Vietnam crumbled under the millitary might of the N.Vietnamese.

It's pretty sad actually, but it's actually a better example of how propogandist warfare is the most effective against democratic societies, something that islamic fundamentalists have learned very well. Maybe all the millitary power of Western societities will fail to protect them as the lessons from Vietnam arm their enemies with the tools to unlocking the inherent weakness of democratic systems, the lack of political will because they're dependent on the emotions of their voters.
 
Whispering Death said:
Nah, Chewie is actually right. So long as the USA stood guard over S.Vietnam the country was independent and 'relatively' stable. When the US public ran out of "stomach" for the war they pulled out and S.Vietnam crumbled under the millitary might of the N.Vietnamese.

It's pretty sad actually, but it's actually a better example of how propogandist warfare is the most effective against democratic societies, something that islamic fundamentalists have learned very well. Maybe all the millitary power of Western societities will fail to protect them as the lessons from Vietnam arm their enemies with the tools to unlocking the inherent weakness of democratic systems, the lack of political will because they're dependent on the emotions of their voters.
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Well further to that maybe you would like to eplain how that sits with the following:

US troops ordered to avoid London (From the BBC)

RAF Lakenheath is one of the bases affected
Thousands of US military personnel based in the UK have been banned by commanders from travelling to London in the wake of Thursday's bomb attacks.

Details of the travel ban, enforced on Friday, emerged as US President George W Bush said the US would "not retreat in the face of terrorists" .

He said: "In this difficult hour, the people of Great Britain can know the American people stand with you."

Well Thanks for that George. Comments gents?
 
Welshwarrior said:
Whispering Death said:
Nah, Chewie is actually right. So long as the USA stood guard over S.Vietnam the country was independent and 'relatively' stable. When the US public ran out of "stomach" for the war they pulled out and S.Vietnam crumbled under the millitary might of the N.Vietnamese.

It's pretty sad actually, but it's actually a better example of how propogandist warfare is the most effective against democratic societies, something that islamic fundamentalists have learned very well. Maybe all the millitary power of Western societities will fail to protect them as the lessons from Vietnam arm their enemies with the tools to unlocking the inherent weakness of democratic systems, the lack of political will because they're dependent on the emotions of their voters.
Click to expand...

Well further to that maybe you would like to eplain how that sits with the following:

US troops ordered to avoid London (From the BBC)

RAF Lakenheath is one of the bases affected
Thousands of US military personnel based in the UK have been banned by commanders from travelling to London in the wake of Thursday's bomb attacks.

Details of the travel ban, enforced on Friday, emerged as US President George W Bush said the US would "not retreat in the face of terrorists" .

He said: "In this difficult hour, the people of Great Britain can know the American people stand with you."

Well Thanks for that George. Comments gents?
Click to expand...

That order has been rescinded.
 
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