The United States of Europe

[Duty Honor Country]

While I was in high school, I had a world geography teacher tell us that he thought that within 20 years, Europe would merge together and become "the United States of Europe."

Seven Years later, his prediction seems to be well on its way to becoming true. The Euro drew everyone closer financially. The formation of the European Union made it easier for everyone to work together. Finally, the EU Constitution is moving to becoming law.

Looking at the EU from the other side of the Great Pond, I think it is only a matter of time before Europe becomes like the United States.

Edit Note: If you were offended by my title, read the post. It has nothing to due with the US taking over Europe

 

[Corocotta]

yes, it will be great, but is gonna be quite difficult. We are going to need many years.. the problem is that many countries do not wanna lose completely their soberanity....

 

[A Can of Man]

The unified currency was the least they could do but right now a unified Europe might be further away than most people think. There are a LOT of tensions within Europe and quite frankly, have trouble actually imaging them getting along.
It managed to pass with the currency, but when actual nationalism is concerned this will be very tricky.
The next step they're trying to achieve it seems is the Euro Corps unified military. It won't unify all their militaries, but create one that is contributed by all (or most) members of the EU. The program gets scrubbed every time.

 

[Corocotta]

The unified currency was the least they could do but right now a unified Europe might be further away than most people think. There are a LOT of tensions within Europe and quite frankly, have trouble actually imaging them getting along.
It managed to pass with the currency, but when actual nationalism is concerned this will be very tricky.
The next step they're trying to achieve it seems is the Euro Corps unified military. It won't unify all their militaries, but create one that is contributed by all (or most) members of the EU. The program gets scrubbed every time.

yes, the political union I think is gonna be almost imposible,I think we will get to a point where the european parlament will have a lot of power, but there will be issues that will never be transfered. the uniformation of the armies could be a matter of time, but you never know.

 

[A Can of Man]

Really the usefulness of a Eurocorps is a big question. If you need a deployment somewhere, you could just have some unit from some army tapped to do it just easy.
Political union is a huge problem because though some people may not realize it, Europe is a very diverse place. Any union would be a Confederation of the loosest sense. Plus the UK's stance on it would be uncertain.
And also from what I've seen anyways, I can't really see France and Germany forming a stable long term relationship that doesn't require America Bashing. Not to mention Holland vs Germany. That stuff is brutal. Also Walloons vs the Flemish in Belgium alone. Of course the Basques and their issues.
Complicated, complicated place.

 

[Kilgore]

Whats so damn crazy about europe is that you can travel a few miles and you find yourself with people speaking another language. Unification will be so damn hard in my opinion.

 

[Chocobo_Blitzer]

I think such a united european state is far, far off.

 

[MontyB]

I doubt there will be any "complete" unification of Europe, my guess is that the european parliament will act more like guideline generator than a government mainly because I cant see any countries happily giving up sovreignty.
The same thing applies to the military I am more inclined to think that there will be a standardisation in equipment, supplies and ammunition than there will a combined european military.

 

[A Can of Man]

There is a limited level of standardization.
the 5.56mm NATO Standard is called NATO Standard because that's exactly what it is.
9mm Parabellum, 5.56mm and 7.62mm are standardized NATO calibers. Also I guess you could include the 12.7mm (aka .50 Cal).
As for everyone carrying the same assault rifle... well I think the local arms manufacturers will have something to say about that. There are too many fine firearms companies, Fabrique Nationale, Heckler and Koch, Sig to name a few for complete standardization I think. Those companies will want the country they are registered to to adopt their weapons.

Air arms have been somewhat "standardized" on a limited basis before. The SPECAT Jaguar, PANAVIA Tornado are good examples and the upcoming EuroFighter Typhoon is another. But the UK wants the JSF and will get it, while the rest of Europe won't.

But this is trivial stuff... really the issue is organization.
Euro Corps might be really an organization where units from various countries are loaned to the head European Union governing body. Who knows, Europe might prefer that body to do the dirty work abroad while leaving the local governments more concentrated on the events at home. Though I don't see that happening either because if there's a key resource point somewhere, I don't think they'd rely on the EU governing body to share it "equally."

 

[MontyB]

I think the bigger question there is does NATO have a future, I dont think it has personally I think it will be replaced by the EDF.

I doubt they will have the same weapons either but I fully expect them to arm themselves with equipment that follows "European" guide lines ie can use the same ammunition.

But the UK wants the JSF and will get it, while the rest of Europe won't.

Yes but really does Britain have a place in the "new" Europe, they seem luke warm on it at best and that feeling seems to be shared by the rest of Europe toward Britain, I really dont see Britain going a lot further down the European road.

 

[Corocotta]

Of course the Basques and their issues.

Well, this is a different problem. It will be great for a new topic. The issues that the Basques want will never happen. I do not think they will be independant, it just does not make any sense, they have never beeb independat from Spain, science Spain is Spain they have always been part of us. They are having elections in April and will see what hapens. It is something that they can not decide, all the Spanish people have to decide about it.

They also have a huge economic dependance on Spain, they get tons of money from the State(all of us), if some day they declare independant all spanish bussines will leave inmediatly,I guess that a border will be created and they will be isoleted, I do not think that´s what they won´t, I think they just won´t more power,but I have to say that The Basque Country is almost like an State, they have their own police, they have their own parlament with more capability to make laws that other territories....

It is important to say also that one of the misions of the spanish army is to keep the territorial integrity of Spain of course....

 

[A Can of Man]

I think the bigger question there is does NATO have a future, I dont think it has personally I think it will be replaced by the EDF.

I doubt they will have the same weapons either but I fully expect them to arm themselves with equipment that follows "European" guide lines ie can use the same ammunition.

But the UK wants the JSF and will get it, while the rest of Europe won't.

Yes but really does Britain have a place in the "new" Europe, they seem luke warm on it at best and that feeling seems to be shared by the rest of Europe toward Britain, I really dont see Britain going a lot further down the European road.

Does NATO have a future? I don't think that's what we discussed here at all. We were talking about the Euro Corps, which by the way I think is what you're calling the EDF (European Defense Force?). This issue is brought up almost every time they meet but time and again it's always scrubbed. I think they even have the rank insignias made up for such a unit... which doesn't exist.
I think whatever happens, ALL SIDES must try to make sure that NATO does live on. You're going to need it when China becomes REALLY strong. Europe and North America need each other. That's just the way I see it. Sure the personalities clash, but if the two realize how important each other are, I think these opposite tendencies can serve as strengths for both sides.
One of the main reasons I believe a truly unified Europe can't develop is the mistrust of the French. They've had a long history of party pooping Europe, not just the US, throughout the Cold War. When something as big as a unification of Europe is on the table and you got a player as big as France, trust becomes a HUGE issue.

 

[CABAL]

There are still widening cracks between the French and German Politicians, although differences are to be put aside.

 

[Boobies]

Got a question...

13th, I am not too familiar with "party pooping" style of the French. Could you tell me or list some past events that the French did to create mistrust among the Europeans?

 

[KC72]

NO! NO! NO!

 

[Pierrot]

YES! YES! YES!

 

[A Can of Man]

Re: Got a question...

13th, I am not too familiar with "party pooping" style of the French. Could you tell me or list some past events that the French did to create mistrust among the Europeans?

It's not really a multiple set of problems rather it was a BIG single problem. When NATO wanted to organize itself, it wanted members to be absolute about the defense of Europe. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, etc etc. were all in. The French however, despite America going in to Vietnam to convince the French to join NATO became a bit of "voluntary" members, meaning that during a time of war, they "might" come to the rescue. This meant that in a coordinated defense of Europe, while every other member did their bit, France would be doing its own thing.
That's what I mean.
I'm sure there's more, but this was probably the biggest one.
Basically could be seen as another case of everyone else sweating their butts off, the French benefitting and yet not really contributing.

There are still widening cracks between the French and German Politicians, although differences are to be put aside.

Well that is the hard part isn't it?
Well since you're German why don't you tell us more about this issue? Though I've been to Europe frequently enough to have even the immigration official here think I've lived in Germany for a few years ( :lol: ) I wouldn't have the COMPLETE exposure to it that a native would.

 

[Doppleganger]

I think the bigger question there is does NATO have a future, I dont think it has personally I think it will be replaced by the EDF.

I doubt they will have the same weapons either but I fully expect them to arm themselves with equipment that follows "European" guide lines ie can use the same ammunition.

But the UK wants the JSF and will get it, while the rest of Europe won't.

Yes but really does Britain have a place in the "new" Europe, they seem luke warm on it at best and that feeling seems to be shared by the rest of Europe toward Britain, I really don't see Britain going a lot further down the European road.

We as a nation are very sceptical about further European integration. We also do not want to lose our special relationship with the US, nor have our strong economy comprised by having to abandon Sterling and adopt the Euro. The main drivers for further European integration appear to be the Franco-German alliance. There appears to be a lot of British distrust towards either nation but in particular the French. Many people in the UK have the impression that France will always be for France first and Europe second. Nothing wrong with that but it hardly bodes well for a US of Europe when those mistrusts and beliefs still exist. In any case, the UK will have to decide at some point to adopt the Euro and go down the European path or become isolated.

 

[Boobies]

Ah...

Thanks, 13th and Dopp. Now I wish Frenchmen can speak their minds on this issue.

 

[MontyB]

We as a nation are very sceptical about further European integration. We also do not want to lose our special relationship with the US, nor have our strong economy comprised by having to abandon Sterling and adopt the Euro. The main drivers for further European integration appear to be the Franco-German alliance. There appears to be a lot of British distrust towards either nation but in particular the French. Many people in the UK have the impression that France will always be for France first and Europe second. Nothing wrong with that but it hardly bodes well for a US of Europe when those mistrusts and beliefs still exist. In any case, the UK will have to decide at some point to adopt the Euro and go down the European path or become isolated.

I dont think it matters which way Britain goes the future of European "strength" both economically and militarily will come from Germany, Russia and France.

Many people in the UK have the impression that France will always be for France first and Europe second. Nothing wrong with that but it hardly bodes well for a US of Europe when those mistrusts and beliefs still exist.

I dont entirely agree, I think all nations within Europe will continue to put theirs first which is only natural it is also why I believe that any European parliament will only ever be for coordinating the european states and not ruling them.