The United States of Europe

MontyB said:
I dont entirely agree, I think all nations within Europe will continue to put theirs first which is only natural it is also why I believe that any European parliament will only ever be for coordinating the european states and not ruling them.

Yes this is true but the French have it bad.
During the Cold War, EVERYONE needed to be on board to stop a Soviet Invasion. Yet the French still toyed around and thought of their personal pride in having their military completely independent, even at the risk of having NATO lose the war.
It's this level of selfishness which makes people skeptical.
Not to mention their extremely poor record of doing things right when the kitchen got hot.
 
MontyB said:
I dont think it matters which way Britain goes the future of European "strength" both economically and militarily will come from Germany, Russia and France.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. You're not saying that Britain, if it goes down the path of European integration, won't be one of the major sources of its strength? I'm sure you're aware that Britain is the 4th strongest economy in the world so I am guessing that I've just misunderstood you. Also, why do you mention Russia when; a) it's not even in the EU and is unlikely to be so at this time and b) it has massive problems with its own military and especially industrial infrastructure.
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:41 am Post subject:
MontyB wrote:
I dont think it matters which way Britain goes the future of European "strength" both economically and militarily will come from Germany, Russia and France.


I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. You're not saying that Britain, if it goes down the path of European integration, won't be one of the major sources of its strength? I'm sure you're aware that Britain is the 4th strongest economy in the world so I am guessing that I've just misunderstood you. Also, why do you mention Russia when; a) it's not even in the EU and is unlikely to be so at this time and b) it has massive problems with its own military and especially industrial infrastructure.

I am saying that I believe in the long term Britain will go it alone and that a "European" union will encompass Russia.
 
When NATO wanted to organize itself, it wanted members to be absolute about the defense of Europe. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, etc etc. were all in. The French however, despite America going in to Vietnam to convince the French to join NATO became a bit of "voluntary" members, meaning that during a time of war, they "might" come to the rescue.
We were part of NATO since the beginning (1949) and until De Gaulle decided to pull us out of it, because he thought that an independent defense policy will not work with our membership in NATO (NATO=US).
Nevertheless we always take part in NATO exercises, and if a war took place against the USSR we would be with NATO. Why did you use "might" ?

I'm sure you're aware that Britain is the 4th strongest economy in the world
but the modernity of a country consists in a lot of parameters : economy of course, quality of infrastructures (railways,motorways, electrical network and production) social level...



We as a nation are very sceptical about further European integration. We also do not want to lose our special relationship with the US, nor have our strong economy comprised by having to abandon Sterling and adopt the Euro.
But one day you'll have to choose between the EU and the US. If the UK dislike the EU, why is it still a member of it ?
 
Pierrot said:
but the modernity of a country consists in a lot of parameters : economy of course, quality of infrastructures (railways,motorways, electrical network and production) social level...

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Surely it goes without saying that Britain, along with France, Germany and most other European countries as well as the US, Japan etc are as modern as any country gets. No?

But one day you'll have to choose between the EU and the US. If the UK dislike the EU, why is it still a member of it ?

We are part of Europe and always have been. It was natural for us to join a European Union to help with trade and other matters. A United States of Europe is a different matter entirely though.

Why should we have to choose between the US and the EU? It's not as if we're talking about taking sides here, are we?

I think a lot of the bad feeling between England and France is due to the fact that a French King invaded Britain a long time ago and deposed our legal King. Then the French Monarchy for centuries afterwards considered the King of England to be a vassal of the King of France. That was one of the main reasons why we were enemies. Things only really changed when Prussia rose up, united the German city-states and conquered France in 1870. We both saw the threat from Germany and we became allies, only because there was someone else we both feared or hated more. True no?

It's that kind of history that will get in the way of closer European integration, at least for now.
 
Here is an Idea for you all to feast on.

Back when the United States first came to be, the federal government had almost no power. Basically the government was there for foreign relations and military might. The rest of the dirty things that went on were left to each individual state. At the time, the federal government did not even make a national currentcy. That is something Europe has already accomplished

If Europe were to band together as a union, I believe the form of government would mimic that of the US in the late 1700's. Each state would still have its identity while the government dealt with trade and military matters.

OK anit union members, tear apart my argument :cry:
 
You have a point but I think there's too much history, too much mistrust, animosity and rivalry between the European countries for this sort of thing to happen so quickly.
I would think that the states of the US didn't have this sort of problem initially. After all, their histories were just about on page 2 at this time.
 
Doody said:
Here is an Idea for you all to feast on.

Back when the United States first came to be, the federal government had almost no power. Basically the government was there for foreign relations and military might. The rest of the dirty things that went on were left to each individual state. At the time, the federal government did not even make a national currentcy. That is something Europe has already accomplished

If Europe were to band together as a union, I believe the form of government would mimic that of the US in the late 1700's. Each state would still have its identity while the government dealt with trade and military matters.

OK anit union members, tear apart my argument :cry:

This is pretty much what I think it will end up like, individual nations are not going to dissolve themselves to form some bland megastate.
 
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Surely it goes without saying that Britain, along with France, Germany and most other European countries as well as the US, Japan etc are as modern as any country gets. No?

I responded to someone here who believe that the modernity of a country consists only in economy. There are other factors.


we became allies, only because there was someone else we both feared or hated more. True no?
True.

But concerning today's Europe I believe that, in order to go further, some countries have to unite themselves and let the others. But I respect the will of countries which do not have the same goal, but they have to respect us too. :?
 
KC72 said:
NO! NO! NO!

I second that!

I will shoot myself in the head before it happens. Britain will not be dragged into this "United States of Europe."

Britain is completely different to the rest of Europe. We once ruled the world, and now everyone is trying to rule us- it ain't gonna happen while I'm still breathing :evil:
 
Kenty said:
KC72 said:
NO! NO! NO!

I second that!

I will shoot myself in the head before it happens. Britain will not be dragged into this "United States of Europe."

Britain is completely different to the rest of Europe. We once ruled the world, and now everyone is trying to rule us- it ain't gonna happen while I'm still breathing :evil:

Italy once rolled the world as well(see Roman Empire), Spain also did...
Do not be so chouvinist.
But any way, we do not need you.
 
I think i would have to go on a rampage in belgium if that happened

why the **** would we want to change? 4th biggest economy in the world, pound as strong as its ever been, and getting stronger. Plus, if we join those pussies we'd never get to go to war again :twisted:
 
staurofilakes said:
Italy once rolled the world as well(see Roman Empire), Spain also did...


True... but they didn't own 33% of the entire planet and all existance of the Roman and Spanish empires are gone. The Commonwealth still exists :rambo:
 
Kenty said:
staurofilakes said:
Italy once rolled the world as well(see Roman Empire), Spain also did...


True... but they didn't own 33% of the entire planet and all existance of the Roman and Spanish empires are gone. The Commonwealth still exists :rambo:

Not all existence of Spanish empire is gone, just one example, over 300 million people just in southamerica speaks spanish. If you think all existence of Roman Empire is gone....well...just read & travel a litle bit.

By the way, you can stay in your island, who cares....
 
staurofilakes said:
By the way, you can stay in your island, who cares....


Good- just remember that the next time your country or any other Euro country starts making demands to ours.
 
Kenty said:
staurofilakes said:
By the way, you can stay in your island, who cares....


Good- just remember that the next time your country or any other Euro country starts making demands to ours.

I just say this: if your goverments wants to follow the rules like everybody else in EU great, if they don´t, stop playing double games and leave.
 
One popular myth is that the EU will be just as stable and united as the USA is. This is a severe misjudgement for the immediate future. Give it time though and we'll see.
 
godofthunder9010 said:
One popular myth is that the EU will be just as stable and united as the USA is. This is a severe misjudgement for the immediate future. Give it time though and we'll see.

The problem in Europe is that we are trying to unite countries that have been enemies for centuries, that have had many wars betewen them...and this is a dificult thing..
 
staurofilakes said:
godofthunder9010 said:
One popular myth is that the EU will be just as stable and united as the USA is. This is a severe misjudgement for the immediate future. Give it time though and we'll see.

The problem in Europe is that we are trying to unite countries that have been enemies for centuries, that have had many wars betewen them...and this is a dificult thing..

It's not just the past wars that are the problem. Britain, Spain, France, Germany, etc are all different culturally.

Austria and Germany share the same culture, but that's as far as it goes. We'll never become the "USE" because we disagree with each other too much.
 
Kenty said:
staurofilakes said:
godofthunder9010 said:
One popular myth is that the EU will be just as stable and united as the USA is. This is a severe misjudgement for the immediate future. Give it time though and we'll see.

The problem in Europe is that we are trying to unite countries that have been enemies for centuries, that have had many wars betewen them...and this is a dificult thing..

It's not just the past wars that are the problem. Britain, Spain, France, Germany, etc are all different culturally.

Austria and Germany share the same culture, but that's as far as it goes. We'll never become the "USE" because we disagree with each other too much.


Well, I do not think that we are that much different in the cultural fact. We all have the same roots (Celtic and visigotic origin), we all were dominated by the roman empire,most of us speak languages originated in the latin, we all are Cristians, we all have democracy....and so on.

The biggest problems I think are: loose of soberanity and NACIONALISM.
 
Back
Top