UNITED STATES OF AMERICA




 
--
Boots
 
March 2nd, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 

Topic: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA


First of all, I do not have any thing against the US citizens, I think US is a great country where different cultures can live together, BUT I can not say the same about the external politics of the US Administration in the last decades:

a) During the cold war US supported or helped to rich the power to different kinds of dictator ships, for example the US administration supported the General Francosīs regime in Spain to dificult the advance of comunism in Europe after WW II, this is one of the reason why spanish people do not like US; the CIA helped Augusto Pinochet to destroy the legal goverment of Allende; the US army trained many paramilitar groups in south america to fight against the socialist movements that were incrising his power in south and central america, I am talking about Panama, Nicaragua...

b) Other thing is the HIPOCRESY of the US Administration, I will explain my self: we all agree that Sadam Hussein was a really bad guy, he killed his own people, the Kurds and the political oposition and he had MDWs; BUT he was even more bad when the US supported him during the war agaist IRAN, the US gived him weapons, militar asistance, money...., he was not bad then???? The thing is that the US was interested in stopping the advance of Iranīs Mulahs.... Before The Mulahīs got the power in lates 70īs US also supportes the SHA dictator ship, remember? Politicians are so hipocrit.....

c) About tha Afganistan war..., The talibans in year 2000 were the same that reach the power after the support that was given to them by the US to win to the Rusians. US gived the weapons, militar training, money..... They were a product of CIA policy. US said that they were attacked because they were responsible of 11-S massacre, BUT we all Know that this attack was made by arabian saudi citizens... a country wich is a friend of the US, why donīt attack arabia saudi then??

d) Some guys began to compare the US empire today with the spanish empire in XV-XVIII century, well, this does not make any sense, why? Okey, the spanish empiry was not a democracy, the US is a democracy since the XVIII century(many will say that it began to be a democracy later:see the slaves;and all the problems you had with civil rights in the 50īs...); in that century(XVIII) another genocide was taking place in the US, I am talking about the genocide of THE REAL AMERICANS: SIOUX, APACHES, CHEROOKES AND MANY OTHERS that were massacred and sended to Reserves(concentration camps??) were they are being destroyed by alcohol and drugs..... And all this happended while the US was considered the biggest democracy in the world


I hope no one get offended because of my ideas, I think this is the good thing of a forum, express what you think and if you think I am not right just have a polite discusion.

I love your forum!!
March 2nd, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
1) During the Cold War, the US made use , among others, of the containment, counterinsurgency and counterevolutionary doctrines.
The US faced a serious challenge on the strategic, military and logistical level from the other huge superpower, the USSR.
Both countries had their own conflicting interests and values. Their priorities was to prevent the other from taking over in certaing key-areas of the globe, as far as material resourses or strategic control were concerned.
They would support any regime that made it clear that would work as an ally against their mutual threats.
Specially in the 60s and the 70s the US help train different militaries around the world, like South American countries and elesewhere.
EVERYWHERE the alternative to that was communism.
Dictatorship are a horrible thing but world politics is not for the lighthearted- power politics is the way thing are. I don't see where the surprise is. I don't think why you assume that someone sees the US as a kind of humanitarian entity.
The government of Allende was a pro- USSR gov and it was not anything like socialdemocrat. The country was going communist. Btw, recent studies have clarified that the US logistical support to the coup was far from major. Indeed, the Kissinger doctrine correctly pointed out that supporting rightwing dictatorship was better than supporting leftwing dictatorships, because- and this a historically proven thing - leftwinging ones never leave the power, while fascist ones tend to change themselves into liberaldmocracies.
Pinochet (for as brutal and unacceptable his gov was on the human rights issues) nevertheless introducted his country to a series of economic reforms that made Chile the stablest country in SAmerica today.
Franco peacefully left power too. Turkish and Greek regimes all left the power in the 70s. SKore's authotitarian regime is today a thriving country with democratic features. Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, Belarus are still hardcore commie countries.
The so called Warsaw Pact countries went democratic after some 60 or 70 yrs.
The only country in the western hemisphere that was left communist allowed the USSR to install missiles that could reach US cities. See how motivated that was now.

2)Saddam Hussein was as bad when supporeted by the US as he was recently. but I exhort you to not overdramatize contacts and "support" by foreign governments in the 1970's. Yes though, Saddam has always been a bad guy. but don't forget that the US broke relations with Iraq in he 1980's, and invaded the country only in 2005.
Yes sure the main enemy at the time was Khomeini's Iran, and rightly so. Now you can see how world politics work, man.
The US made friends with stalin during WW2, should that be a problem?

3)About the Taliban and the alleged support from the US, you should read some books, dude. Pakistan ISI held contacts with Hekmatyar at the time, and the US let do. When Hekmatyar proved he was a jerk (he's always been) the ISI began supporting the Taliban.
The US just let do. I'm talking about the late 1980's or early 1990's.
The US broke their relations with the Taliban in 1997 though, before they took over the whole country, which they did at the expense of Afghan best man ever existed, Massoud. Massoud was US real asset in Afghanistan. Don't let them fool you, trust me.
The Taliban were not a product of the CIA policy.
The attack on Afghanistan was an attack the whole international community agreed upon delivering. The terrorist organization that planned the attacks onto the US was based in the country, supported by that government which wasn't evidently "so much" close to Washington.
The Saudi Arabia thing is a whole diff't cattle of fish. More controversial and under scanning at present.

4) I'll leave the fourth question to American friends here. The Natives extermination is a stain on America's record. Same thing happened to all developed countries that mass murdered their native populations: Australia, Russia, Brazil, Canada. Nevertheless the US was a democracy from his origin. Go check out some political studies books and look up for definition of democracy as contextualized in the past centuries.

Thanks for loving the forum.
March 2nd, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: UNITES STATES OF AMERICA


Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
d) Some guys began to compare the US empire today with the spanish empire in XV-XVIII century, well, this does not make any sense, why? Okey, the spanish empiry was not a democracy, the US is a democracy since the XVIII century(many will say that it began to be a democracy later:see the slaves;and all the problems you had with civil rights in the 50īs...); in that century(XVIII) another genocide was taking place in the US, I am talking about the genocide of THE REAL AMERICANS: SIOUX, APACHES, CHEROOKES AND MANY OTHERS that were massacred and sended to Reserves(concentration camps??) were they are being destroyed by alcohol and drugs..... And all this happended while the US was considered the biggest democracy in the world
Spain has absolutely no room to talk when it comes to Native Americans and massacre and/or genocide. They're country quite handily outdid everyone else in this department. The Spaniards also made every attempt to utterly destroy Native American cultures and quite successfully annihilated some very advanced ones. They also massacred them, enslaved them and murdered them a lot more efficiently than the USA ever dreamed of doing. Remember the burning of the Maya records? We will never fully know what was lost of their history. Spain just had a lot more impressive Native American cultures available for them to destroy.

That much said, the treatment of the Native Americans is probably the biggest disgrace in American History. The uncertain reconcilliation is the Reservations, which provide a place that is controlled by the tribes. "Concentration Camps" would be a long long ways from the truth if you actually knew what you were talking about. Reservations are essentially nations (Native American Tribes) within a nation (the USA), but they have all the rights and priveledges of American citizens with a degree of exemption from responsibilities. The theory is that the Reservation is a place for Native Americans to preserve their cultural heritage. The reality is that they become a device to inadvertantly enable many Native Americans to accomplish little or nothing with their lives. They are not trapped there anymore than I am trapped where I live. Any one of them can back up and move away at any time he or she chooses. Lately, many reservations have used their exemption from most US laws to establish casinos in states that outlaw them, and those casinos have done very well, but that source of wealth has not reliably spread to all the tribe members on the Reservation. The Windriver Reservation, the one closest to my home town, struck oil and its members made a lot of money ... but for the most part, they didn't know how to turn that into true wealth. Countless examples of a teenage boy or girl starting the day with $500 in their pocket and having spent it at the end of the day.
--
Boots
March 2nd, 2005  
lemontree
 
The US govt takes decisions based on its national goal and intrest. These policies may or may not be liked by other countries. But then it is these national policies that allow the US to obtain oil at much cheaper rates than otehr countries. Oil is what drives the industries of the world. It is no wonder that in the US a gallon of petrol cost between $2 to $2.25 and in some parts of Texas it is less than $2.00 per gallon, while most of us pay close to $3.50 or $3.80 per gallon of petrol.
March 2nd, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 

Topic: Re: UNITES STATES OF AMERICA


Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
a) During the cold war US supported or helped to rich the power to different kinds of dictator ships, for example the US administration supported the General Francosīs regime in Spain to dificult the advance of comunism in Europe after WW II, this is one of the reason why spanish people do not like US; the CIA helped Augusto Pinochet to destroy the legal goverment of Allende; the US army trained many paramilitar groups in south america to fight against the socialist movements that were incrising his power in south and central america, I am talking about Panama, Nicaragua...
And without that support, South Korea wouldn't have become a democracy later on.
Same goes to Indonesia.
What do you need to run a SUCCESSFUL democracy? You need money and education. It's not a coincidence that the main players in America's democracy building were rich, land owners with massive property. Democracy is a painfully difficult system to master, yet when you get it rolling is both strong and righteous.
Dictatorships were often bad. But the thing that the ones that worked did was they brought money into the country.
Every South Korean today owes his/her ass to Park Jung-hee, a dictator who took control through a Coup D'etat. Before him it was a democracy, but with no money and therefore no power. Basically a democracy for the sake of being called a democracy. He got the things sorted and brought money in.
And VERY importantly, the Americans kept Communism out. If Communism ever came and took hold, every hope, dream and potential would have been thrown out the window.
March 2nd, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 

Topic: reply


Hi!

I agree with you that comunism was a horrible political sistem. It killed over 40 million people in Rusia and many in Cambodia, China... Every body should read an Alexandr Soljenitsinīs book called GULAG, itīs about the rusian concentration camps in Siberia.

I also agree that the democratic countries had to do something to stop the advance of comunism. After the WW II, the winners of the war created the United Nations, an institucion made for trying to solve different conflicts and to avoid WW III. This institucion have being legislating about many staff, this is what we calle International Law. The way the US fought against comunism in many countries, basically central america, was completelly against international law; in internacional law there are concepts such as soberany and independence that US completely ignored. You will say that the UN does not solve the world problems any more, ok, i agree, but then we should change it, or if any country do not follow the rules must go away...... I live in Sweeden, many people from Chile live here, they had to left chile because their lives were in big risk...i do not know what will thay think if they ear your opinions, probably FLIP!

You also told me that i do not know what a democracy is, well, I am a law student, i could perfectly explain you what a democracy is, but is a lost of time, we all know what it is. You should have read my comment about the US democracy in XVIII in its context. Democracy is a concept that have being developing along the centuries(actually the first constitucion in the world,if you do not count the first democracy of roman empire: i know, the slaves could not vote!, was the american of 1786)

Concerning to the war betewen rusian and afganistan..you say US did not support afgans... well, i thought i was well known that they did..but I do not have any bibliography to show...I will look for it

We all know what the spanish did with south american natives. It was awful; but it happend 400 years ago!!!! But I repeat what I said before, Spain was not a democracy. During the Norther American natives genocide US was a democracy, you had a Constitucion, with civil rights and many more....i guess that not for the indians. Otherwise, I think that the genocide continued untill the beginnings of XX century You say that the Indians are happy in their reserves....i do not think so....... their life stile did not have much to do with the one they have now.....

hope to ear from you soon
March 2nd, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 

Topic: us interest


The problem is that US can not take decisions by his own. US is part of the UN and they most follow the rules or left the organizasion. They already have a very priviliageted position in the security council with the other 6 big members: china, GB, France, rusia.... what else do you want?

the international law was created for something!!!!
March 2nd, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
Since you want to dip into history and name names. Aztec, Maya, Inca, the California Mission Tribes the list is very extensive. The form of Goverment whether Monarchy or Democracy matters little. The deeds were committed under a flag and in the name of a Country to advance that Countries interests. Right or Wrong it happened. It wasn't only South American Natives it was Central and North American natives as well.

And since you wish to claim 400 year amnesty and clean Espanas reputation by time and goverment changes. I suggest you vist La Tierra mis Padres. The hiearchy estbalished by Los Conquistadores is still quite evident in the Pueblos and Campos the Guerros, still hold the land and the mestizos still work the land. The Culture is a mix of Catholic (to hide) and native. All this done and supported by the Spanish Goverment via Land Grants and deeds. Do you think that the Pobres in Latin America are any happier than the Natives of North America?

And while we're at it how about the forced labor on Cubas Cane Plantations well into the 1890's.

It seems to me that this is a case of Spain should be given a pass and the US is a meany. You need to realize there is not one nation who's hands are clean.
March 2nd, 2005  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
Not true, the LATVIANS did not do anything in istory that is bad...or good...or matters
March 2nd, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
staurofilakes, you will not be told again, post an introduction in the Welcoming Center before you post again. It is perfectly alright to have and express your opinions about other nations on this forum, but a patterned attack on any nation is not encouraged here, and is very likely to result in a ban. We have members from many nations here, and that fact and those members from countries other than your own must be respected.


This goes for everyone, if you post fact or what you think is fact, you MUST post a source (preferably a link) so 1) we can see where you are getting your information, and 2) so we can all be on the same page as far as knowing what everyone is talking about goes.