A Can of Man
Je suis aware
stauro, the anti-communst mindset hadn't found its place in power yet. You have to remember the governments change over time as do everything else.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
03USMC
Active member
staurofilakes said:
Okay lets clarify some things so I understand stand what time period your talking about, as you seem to be bouncing hither and yon thru history in an attempt to make some type of point.
When your talking about Nicaragua, Guatemala are you speaking of the 1920's and the Banana Wars? Or the post WWII era?
Chile are you speaking about the US's support of Pinochet? or something else?
Since Korea and Vietnam occured after the 2nd World War and the rise of the communist bloc they have little bearing on the reasons that the US did not assist a Fascist Rebellion in Spain in the 1930's.
13th as put it best the Anti Communist mind set did not become ingrained until post WWII. And the US was isolationist at the time.I also believe that many people saw Marxists as the lesser of two evils.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Lusitana has any bearing on support or lack there of in the Spanish Civil War.
Corocotta
Active member
03USMC said:
I understand what you are saying, i have been mixing many historical periods...My point was this:The US anticomunist policy is known by all of us, this policy began only after WWII.Why? ( I ask because I do not know...just wanna informate my self) Is known by everybody that Lennin was a really awful guy, he killed millions of people in the sibenian´s concentration camps....so, why this policy began only after WWII???
About the Lusitania: I did not relationated with spanish civil war; some guy told that US was very isolated in the 30s;but in the 15s was not isolated at all, US was sending weapons to GB...,so, they were isolated in the 30s but not in the 15s?? It is incredible how fast US policy changes!!
I hope my point is clear I have dificulties to express my self....
03USMC
Active member
Because until the late 1940's Communism was pretty much isolated to the Soviet Union as a form of Goverment. Stalin exported Communism to all the Soviet Occupied areas - Eastern Europe and provided assistance to Mao in China and Kim in North Korea. He also crushed any resistance to his puppet goverments and ignored the requests of his former allies US, UK, and France to allow nations to establish Self Goverment outside the orbit of the Kremlin. The Berlin Blockade and subsequent Air Lift is a prime example of this.
As far as the US was concerned in the scope of things Stalin and later leaders of the USSR were bent on World Domination at the expense of freedom. The US became involved in Central and South American Guerrilla Wars because Castro and his henchman El Che were exporting Communism to the back door of the US with the support of the USSR.
As far as the US was concerned in the scope of things Stalin and later leaders of the USSR were bent on World Domination at the expense of freedom. The US became involved in Central and South American Guerrilla Wars because Castro and his henchman El Che were exporting Communism to the back door of the US with the support of the USSR.
Corocotta
Active member
okey, thank you for the aclaration! With my comments about Franco I was just trying to make you see that in Spain we saw the dark side of comunism may be before than other countries(of course with the exception of USSR).I do not like any kind of dictatorship, but with an historical perspective may be it was better that Franco won. We got a Constitucion science 1978. If the comunist would have won, we will probably be right now in the same situation as all the countries that were under the soviet domination.......
staurofilakes said:
There you go, so in actuality Spain owes its good future situation to the USA since you said it help to support Franco against Communism.
Not only that Spain owes its democracy to the USA, since without it the Communist would have dominated Europe.
...So what's the big idea always trying to find silly lame excuses to put down the USA.
Charge 7
Master Gunner
"Some guys said that US were very isolated at that time, well, they joined the WWI,because a german submarine sunk the Lusitania, well you should know that Ironically, the U-boat was originally intended as a defensive craft."
Incorrect again. The US did not declare war on the Central Powers in WWI because of the sinking of the Lusitania. It certainly did add to the ill feelings, but the Lusitania was sunk 2 years before the US went to war. We declared war because of the Zimmerman Telegram. The German embassy sent a telegram to Mexico offering the return of Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona if they would join the war on their side and fight the US. We took this as intent to declare war on us and meddling with our neighbor to cause a war on our doorstep.
Also if your intention was to show us that the US wasn't isolationist earlier than the WWII era, you've failed in your research yet again. It was precicely _because_ of WWI that we became so deadset on isolationism. We saw Europe as just an unending quagmire of wars over issues that lost American lives to no gain for the peace of the world. It was only WWII that awakened us to the fact that we must play a part in world affairs.
Incorrect again. The US did not declare war on the Central Powers in WWI because of the sinking of the Lusitania. It certainly did add to the ill feelings, but the Lusitania was sunk 2 years before the US went to war. We declared war because of the Zimmerman Telegram. The German embassy sent a telegram to Mexico offering the return of Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona if they would join the war on their side and fight the US. We took this as intent to declare war on us and meddling with our neighbor to cause a war on our doorstep.
Also if your intention was to show us that the US wasn't isolationist earlier than the WWII era, you've failed in your research yet again. It was precicely _because_ of WWI that we became so deadset on isolationism. We saw Europe as just an unending quagmire of wars over issues that lost American lives to no gain for the peace of the world. It was only WWII that awakened us to the fact that we must play a part in world affairs.
Corocotta
Active member
gladius said:
US did not help Franco to win comunism,he did with Hitler & Mussolinni help. US supported Franco once he won the war, and basically in the 50s. I do not know if there was a big risk of comunism coming back.
Spanish democracy is not due to US help. Actually Franco wanted his regimen to become into a democracy, and that is the only reason in spanish democracy, US has nothing to do with it
Charge 7
Master Gunner
What? The part where you say "well, they joined the WWI,because a german submarine sunk the Lusitania" hmm? You can't even get _yourself_ straight much less history.
You didn't read _my_ post. I wasn't argueing that we weren't isolationist in WWI. I was stating that it was _because_ of WWI that we took such a determined isolationist stance.
You didn't read _my_ post. I wasn't argueing that we weren't isolationist in WWI. I was stating that it was _because_ of WWI that we took such a determined isolationist stance.
03USMC
Active member
Guaripa said:
Yeah Private US citizens supported the Marxists. I was Pointing out that Americans were there but without Goverment Support. At the same time other Americans were attending American Bunde rallies and supporting Facisim and the Nazis.
Being a member of ethier faction became exteremly detrimental during WWII.
03USMC
Active member
staurofilakes said:
While I don't agree with the "owing of democracy" statement as it's being made by Gladius. I'd like to know exactly what your reference to Central American Goverments has to do the current discussion.
Please enlighten us to the secerets you hold of the geopolitical situation in Latin America. Or are just throwing it out there again.
Corocotta
Active member
03USMC said:
Sure, he said that all democracy in the world are due to US and that we should be happy of that. I guees he included the democracies of Central America where US put and removed dictatorships with total impunity, the thing is that I belive that in those countries real democracy does not exit...I guess they have to give thanks to the US...
I do not have any secrets about Latin America situation, I guess is well known by everybody, at least in Europe:
-Landowners that explotes peasants
-common people is really poor
-political inestability
-narcotrafic( the CIA helped Nicaraguan Contra rebels ship planeloads of cocaine into the US. In exchange for cocaine, the Contras got weapons to fight their war in Nicaragua.) http://nick.assumption.edu/WebVAX/ETnew/wcoc23Sep96.html
I do not say that all of this is due to US obviously....
03USMC
Active member
staurofilakes said:
Wow! Thats an old link! 1996. Those charges were pretty much debunked in that year too. The CIA did not traffic cocaine paid local assets of the CIA did. Manuel Noriega and others. But it was not done as a matter of policy or by the direction of their Handlers. The charges stem from the fact that Panama was the main conduit for arms to the Contras in Honduras. Noriega trafficked coca for profit not as a US asset.
Certain Contra leaders also were part of the Cali/Medillan pipeline in that they provided security for shipments and contracted out thru El Pina. But then again Ortega and the Sandinistas also provided air strips and security in Nicaragua also arranged by Noriega. The CIA, DIA, and DEA got painted with the brush because Noriega was a paid asset and they lost control of him.
The Exploitation of the "peasants" by land owners is not solely the fault of any US intervention in the region. It is almost a cultural thing. It started
with the colonization of Central, South and North America. The indigenous people were forced into labor by land owning European Colonists. When the Wars for Independence came about in the Early 1800's and the Spanish began to cede their colonies they issued Land Grants to the land owners the Revolutionary Goverments which contained Mestizos and Europeans recognized these land grants and continued the cycle of denying the lower classes many rights. This continued on into the 20th century take a look at the many Mexican Revolutions. Land rights often remained in the hands of the Gentry. As long as they backed the current Goverment. This is not to say that the US backing American business interests did not have a role, but it by no means begins and ends with the US.
The level of poverty in the region is due to many factors not just class. But also the nations ability to use their resources.
Political instability is the hallmark of all 3rd and 4th world countries. Due to the nature of their goverments and poverty levels. But lying it totally at the feet of the US is a cop out.