UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - Page 4




 
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Boots
 
March 3rd, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Well, basically I think that a democracy should be based in this things:

- Separation of the three main powers: legislative, ejecutive and judicial

- Sistem based on human rights

- Different liberties: expresion, movement, social rights...

We should differenciate betewen the political sistem and goverment sistem( in europe we have direct democracy, people chosse their representats; in US you choose representants who afterwards choose the president, personally I prefer the european way, but both of them are democratic)
March 3rd, 2005  
Knightraptor
 
Exactly, its all how you view democracy and how literal you take the term. The USA is certainly democratic, but its just a trivial arguement debating the meaning and application of the term Democracy in context in a literal or general sense.

*shrugs*
March 3rd, 2005  
Damien435
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
Who sais that a Republic is not a democratic sistem???
Do you think that France is a dictatorship??
US is a democracy and a will tell you why:

- You have a parlament wich represent the US citizens and they make laws representing their people

-you have a independat judicial sistem

- you have civil rigths

-Human rights are respected in US ( well there are few exceptions: dead penalty. guantanamo...)

- Freedom of expresion


I could be hours writting, but you can be sure of something, YOU live in a democracy
- We do not have a parliament, we have a Congress which is supposed to make laws representing their people.

- Yes we do, but that is not a defining characteristic of a democracy.

- Can't argue with you there, even though civil rights and democracy do not go hand in hand.

- A person loses their rights once they violate the right of another person. The detainees at GITMO are not Americans so once again the rights granted to all Americans by the Constitution do not apply to them.

- Once again, this does not go hand in hand with Democracy.

America is a Representative Democracy, meaning we elect REPRESENTATIVES to REPRESENT us in Government, because a country of 280 million can not have a nation wide vote everytime someone wants to change Page 8, Paragraph 3, Sentence 4, Word 8 of the Tax Code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
We should differenciate betewen the political sistem and goverment sistem( in europe we have direct democracy, people chosse their representats; in US you choose representants who afterwards choose the president, personally I prefer the european way, but both of them are democratic)
Both of your examples are examples of Representative Democracy. In a Direct Democracy the people themselves vote on every single issue, not legislative body (other than the people). This system will not work in a population much greater than 10,000 people, and that is also assuming that only half of the people are eligible to vote.

Representative Democracy, as I have already said, means that the people elect representatives who then vote on the people's behalf. Your comparison of the Electoral College to the Popular Vote are both examples of how a Representative Democracy chooses the heads of the Executive Branch, which also has nothing to do with whether it is a Direct or Representative Democracy.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you know what you are trying to say, but your English is some what limited, making it hard for you to say what you are trying to say.
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Boots
March 4th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. As you said my english sucks, and is a bg effort to me to find the words that express what i mean.

-The Congres makes the some function as europen Parlaments: making laws.

-An independat judicial sistem is carasteristic of a democracy. Could you give me an example of a democracy where the judges are putted by the goverment?

-In every democracy people loose their rights when they go to jail.

-US is a member of the UN, so they MUST respect HUMAN RIGHTS, and as you can suppose Human means for the all humanity, not just americans. There is another thing called Geneva Convention, I encourage you to read it:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

You will find many interesting things!!!
March 4th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. As you said my english sucks, and is a bg effort to me to find the words that express what i mean.

-The Congres makes the some function as europen Parlaments: making laws.

-An independat judicial sistem is carasteristic of a democracy. Could you give me an example of a democracy where the judges are putted by the goverment?

-In every democracy people loose their rights when they go to jail.

-US is a member of the UN, so they MUST respect HUMAN RIGHTS, and as you can suppose Human means for the all humanity, not just americans. There is another thing called Geneva Convention, I encourage you to read it:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

You will find many interesting things!!!
Ok the Congress and the Parliament are pretty much the same thing.
But:
1) The US Prez appoints the Supreme Court Judges.
2)Citizens do not lose their rights once they're jailed. WTHeck you talking about? They might not vote but they don't absolutely lose their rights.
3)Do you need a list of all the country in the world that don't respect human rights on a standard daily basis and are in the UN?
Stauroflakes, did anyone for some unknown and mysterious reason lead you into thinking that the UN is about human rights??? The UN is not about democracvy and it is NOT about human rights. The UN is about preventing wars and solve conflicts.
The Geneva Convention has nothing to do with UN membership. And trust me, RN knows about the GC already.
March 4th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Well we agree in certain things.

-The Prez only apoints those judges, not all of them. In many democratic countries happens the same. Is Spain for example a number of the judges of the supreme court.

-when people go to jail, they lose rights, not all of them, but many, i will give you some examples: right to move with freedom along the country, right to, to be choosen as candidate for a political party, liberty of expresion(in jail they control your letters and what you talk with the visits...; and why not, in US you might loose your right to live: i am talking about the dead penalty. Is this enough???

-do not worry about the list, i cam make as well: china, rusia, china, US, and many many more

- The UN has a lot to do with human rights and i will give you some examples:

http://www.un.org/rights/

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html


I think this is enough, but if you want i will send you more information
very pleased!!


-Geneve convention has a lot to do with UN: for being member of the UN you have to accept it
March 4th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
Uhm yeah as of today virtually all of the world countries have ratified the GC.
I don't see what its observance has to do with the UN though.

NKorea is in the UN, PRC is, Vietnam, Cuba, Belarus, Sudan....
If you believe the US violate human rights as often as these countries do, or as rilevantly, well it's your problem.

From your previous post, it sounded like EVERYWHERE when people go to jail they lose ALL of their rights, which they don't. They lose some, accordingly to constitution, but they don't lose their rights.


I see you like to look for the world's wrongs only where you want.
March 4th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes

-when people go to jail, they lose rights, not all of them, but many, i will give you some examples: right to move with freedom along the country, right to, to be choosen as candidate for a political party, liberty of expresion(in jail they control your letters and what you talk with the visits...; and why not, in US you might loose your right to live: i am talking about the dead penalty. Is this enough???
Is that a bad thing?
- Right to move around the country = You would hope the criminals are locked up somewhere right? I mean, seriously.
- Right to choose a candidate for a political party = Right. What if a local candidate figures out that he can actually USE the criminal vote to win in his district? Upholding the law will become that much harder wouldn't it?
- Control letters and what you talk in visits = Right. "Get those dynamites from the usual blow up guy and do the boom at lunch time!" isn't an acceptable line in a letter.
- Losing the right to live = This is probably the only questionable one. But then again, if it's your sister that's been kidnapped, raped and cut into little pieces and her body parts used as house ornaments, chances are you'd want the perpetrator dead. And what would you accomplish by ever releasing the guy? Life imprisonment is probably a better option if u ask me though. Too many cases of getting the wrong guy.
March 4th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Okey guys, read my post again.Italian Guy: you said people don not lose rights when they go to jail, I gived you some clear examples. I also did not say that losing thosa rights is wrong, I think it is awsome!!! One more thing, for being a member of UN you have to ratified GC!!

Those countries that you wrote are not democracies, US is a democracy!

13th red neck: I was just saying wich are the rights that a person in jail loses. The Italian guy said that one you go to prison you lose no rights, that is way I made that list. I tought that my post was very clear.

About the dead penalty: the example you gived me is not very serious, you will probable have better argument, at I hope so!!
March 4th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
The example I gave u is serious because it does happen.
After someone kidnaps your sister, rapes her, cuts her up and uses her body parts as decoration, would you want to sit down, talk with him and try to restore his life so that he can live a healthy, purposeful life and hopefully not kill again?
It's an extreme case, but it isn't something that's never happened. It's happened many times.

I think Italian Guy meant you were still bound by laws set to protect you even if you were a prisoner. The laws are different from the regular civilians but there are codes of conduct that protect others from you and protect you from others.
I don't know that's my assumption.