UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - Page 11




 
--
Boots
 
March 11th, 2005  
Guaripa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
Spanish democracy is not due to US help. Actually Franco wanted his regimen to become into a democracy, and that is the only reason in spanish democracy, US has nothing to do with it
Spanish democracy has everything to do with the US.

If there were no USA the the USSR (or the Nazi's) would have dominated continental Europe, if not the world, therefore no Spanish democracy.

No USA, No Spanish democracy. Period.
_______

OK, this is my last post on this !

Look, what are you talking about ??

We are like the mother in-law who thinks knows better, and we dont.

A short list of things that developed in Spain, even during the war, and thanks not to the US, but to Spaniards and Franco

1- They wanted nothing to do with the Marshall Plan, they knew the price was to high.
2- They turned a nation of mostly farmers and the poor, and created a middle class, industry and social benefits
3- Created in the mid-civil war , the ONCE, National Org. for the Blind, today a pillar in Spain for social services.
4-Established a Social Security Program, with guaranties, even today 30 day vacations, yes guaranteed
5-Created the Social Institute for Marines, to assit the fishing industry.

The list is too long.

These are just a few things, not to mention what Franco had told Nixon that became a reality,
No to Communism, Creation of a Mid-Class, Re-institution of the Crown.

And about th Central and South America,

Well Argentina had a great economic plan, until we saw it and decided to kill it, (remember Citi Corp scandal, maybe not it only made a few samll papers) and dont forget the Iran-Contra Affair, and several deposing of "Democratic" elected presidents we did not like and decided to change the view.

We dont know better, and we are sometimes just as bad as the ones we judge !here is another good example ! We denied this for 60 years.
Once we are eady to admit our wrongs, we will come to BE !


U.S. to pay $25.5 million, acknowledge role in plundering of Nazi gold train

By CATHERINE WILSON
Associated Press
Posted March 11 2005, 10:46 AM EST

MIAMI -- The United States agreed Friday to acknowledge its role as part of a $25.5 million settlement of claims by Hungarian Holocaust survivors that U.S. soldiers plundered a trainload of family treasures seized by Nazis during World War II.

The wording of the acknowledgment is up to the government and is not expected before a hearing on final approval proposed for October. A hearing on preliminary approval is set Thursday before U.S. District Judge Patricia Seitz.

Word of the financial settlement, to be distributed among needy Hungarian survivors rather than individual claimants, leaked in December after the two sides announced an agreement in principle, but the question of whether any acknowledgment was forthcoming had not been resolved.

``The case never really was about money. It was about having a reckoning with history,'' said Sam Dubbin, one of the families' lawyers. He called the agreement ``a great outcome.''

The Justice Department, which negotiated on behalf of the government, issued a statement saying it was ``very pleased to announce'' the settlement but said it would be inappropriate to add comment on a pending legal matter.

About $21 million in funding for humanitarian services will be distributed to social service agencies worldwide based on the percentage of survivors, including 40 percent in Israel, 22 percent in Hungary, 21 percent in the United States and 7 percent in Canada.

Up to $3.85 million is proposed for legal fees and costs. A total of $500,000 would fund an archive on the train for scholarly and educational uses.

The families claimed high-ranking U.S. Army officers and troops pilfered from the so-called Nazi Gold Train's 29 boxcars after it was intercepted in May 1945, during the closing days of the European war. The train carried gold, jewels, 1,200 paintings, silver, china, porcelain, 3,000 Oriental carpets and other heirlooms seized by the Nazis from Jewish families.

``I can't say that I'm happy with the settlement, but I am happy that we have a closure,'' said David Mermelstein of Miami, one of the plaintiffs. In the pending U.S. statement, he said. ``I expect them to acknowledge that it was a mistake not to return the property to the rightful owners.''

The agreement concluded it ``would be impractical'' to divide money among an estimated 60,000 Hungarian survivors because of the difficulty determining who had what on the train and the administrative costs of determining eligibility for compensation.

``This case has little precedent,'' the two sides wrote the judge. ``Many of the participants are dead. There are evidentiary gaps. The actions of the United States that the plaintiffs challenge followed in the wake of the worst crime in modern history.''

Events were complicated by migrating populations, border shifts and foreign policy realignments as the Soviet Union solidified its hold on Eastern Europe.

The United States had insisted it would be impossible to prove whose property made it into U.S. hands after Hungarians and Austrians stole from the train along the way.

A commission appointed by then-President Clinton concluded in 1999 that American officers helped themselves to china, silverware and artwork for their homes and offices.

The families claimed the U.S. government improperly changed its repatriation policy by auctioning what remained and donating the money to international Jewish aid agencies.

Well-established Jewish charities have received funds in past settlements when the U.S. government pressed European governments and corporations to resolve Holocaust claims.

A United Jewish Communities survey in 2003 estimated about 5,000 Hungarians were among about 122,000 Holocaust survivors living in the United States. With a median age of 71, they were poorer, sicker and more disabled than other older American Jews.
March 11th, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
You make some good points concerning what Spain accomplished even with a Facisit Goverment. However the Gold train reference is out there considering the current discussion.

And while the US has intervened in many Latin American Countries since the early 1800's and in many cases at the behest of American Business interests to blame the US soley for all problems in Latin America is turning a blind eye to the root cause of many of these problems.......European involement in the region from the 15th Century Forward. England, France, Germany, Portagual and yes Spain all had a hand in making the region what it is today not just the US.

You can preach all you care to about how wrong the US has been in many of it's interventions in the region and I will agree with you on many of the issues. However you cannot absolve Espana based on the results of goverment change and intervening years.
March 11th, 2005  
gladius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
So, all the democracies in the world are due to US......ummmmmmm May be you should ask to some guy from Honduras,Salvador,Guatemala,Nicaragua what they think of that. And do not tell me they live in a democracy now, because that will be really funny.
Since when did I say all the democracies of the world are due to the US? When? You're puting words in my mouth.

Second of all your bringing South American countries that have nothing to do with this discusion, maybe because you have nothing to say and your trying to change the central issue of the subject.

Without the US led allied presence in mainland Europe during, and after WWII, the Soviets would have swept all the way into France.

The Soviets had a 7 million man army and they could have easily taken Spain if they wanted to. You have to remember Franco sent the Blue division to fight in Russia, so they would have had a good excuse to attack.

Even if they didn't invade Spain, do you really think the Communist would have allowed a fledgling democracy within a Communist dominated contitent. I don't think so.

So there no USA, no Spanish democracy.

The country you are bashing is a major factor what gave you the right to go in this forum and say what you want to in the first place.

If you want counter this stick to the subject please, try not to deflect it with weak arguments about stuff that has nothing to do with the central subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaripa
OK, this is my last post on this !

Look, what are you talking about ??

We are like the mother in-law who thinks knows better, and we dont.

A short list of things that developed in Spain, even during the war, and thanks not to the US, but to Spaniards and Franco
Again you haven't gotten the point here.

I couldn't care less about any coutry's internal politics on their way to demcoracy. That's not the point here.

So let me state my point again; Without the US led alliance (the British alone wouldn't be able to contain them), the Soviets (or the Nazi's) would have dominated ALL of continental Europe.

So whatever a coutry's internal politics whether they agree or disagree with the USA, is irrelevant!

The mere US presense in mainland Europe is what allowed the Spanish democracy to arise without being molested by total Soviet domination.

No USA, no Spanish democracy.
--
Boots
March 11th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
A lot of countries owe democracy either in direct action or indirect action of the US.
Japan
South Korea
Taiwan
Philippines
Those come off the top of my head immediately. I deliberately didn't add the ones that were liberated from Nazi Germany since making that point seems to upset a lot of people for some reason.
March 11th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
With out the US alliance Germany would have won the WWII.Franco was his allie, he was a Fascist to,so i do not know why Hitler should attack Franco.Franco left the power pacifically,he wanted a democracy for Spain. Read Guaripa´s post. Spanish democracy has nothing to do with US,it is due only to spaniards.
March 11th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
I actually agree about Spain but where did I mention Spain? I didn't. I said countries occupied by Nazi Germany, which Spain was not. The reference was to countries like Holland, Belgium, France, etc. those who did not become caught on the Soviet side of the Cold War.
Here are some things I believe about Franco.
- Probably was too much of a straight shooter to fall for the "Communism is the answer" bollocks.
- Wanted to protect the Monarchy which would surely fall if the Communists took power. He could have killed the monarchy off easily but instead he protected them while they were out of power.
Yes, full credit to Spain for their democracy.
But the USA has credit for democracies all around the world. You cannot deny that.
March 11th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
My answer was to Gladius, i think you are right about the countries you mentioned. I think that US has exported democracy to many countries.... but not to all of them It is nice to hear opinions like yours and Guaripa´s.
March 11th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
For a nation that joined both world wars only after the winning side was obvious (and lets face it had Germany not declared war on the US you would still be trying to figure out whose side to join) you are taking a lot of liberties with the facts.

1) Had Britain not been available as a base the US could not have been able to attack Europe.

2) Believe it or not Britain, the Commonwealth and other European troops (The Free French, Dutch, Poles , Norwegians etc.) had already defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, the Kreigsmarine in the battle of the atlantic and Africa Corps by the time the US decided to show up, there is no reason to assume they would not have carried the war into Italy as well.

3) By 1942 the Germans were over stretched on all fronts and the British/Commonwealth/Russians had developed counters to German tactics which were working quite effectively.

The only thing the US gave the western allies was the manpower and material to open a second european front and end the european war sooner which on your own you couldnt have done so how about refering the WW2 victory to an allied effort rather than trying to claim it as a solo US victory which it obviously wasnt.



Quote:
A lot of countries owe democracy either in direct action or indirect action of the US.
Japan
South Korea
Taiwan
Philippines
Those come off the top of my head immediately. I deliberately didn't add the ones that were liberated from Nazi Germany since making that point seems to upset a lot of people for some reason.
The reason people like myself get "upset" is that you are marginalising the lives and efforts of hundreds of thousands of allied troops (and I would suspect many that use these boards had family that took part in WW2) to claim a solo win for the US that it has no right to claim.
March 11th, 2005  
gladius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
With out the US alliance Germany would have won the WWII.Franco was his allie, he was a Fascist to,so i do not know why Hitler should attack Franco.Franco left the power pacifically,he wanted a democracy for Spain. Read Guaripa´s post. Spanish democracy has nothing to do with US,it is due only to spaniards.
So your saying Hilter would let a flegdling democracy arise in a Nazi dominated Europe. I don't think so.

Hitler hated democracies, he thought they were weak, he would have invaded Spain if it ever decided to become a democracy.

Again, no USA, no Spanish democracy.
March 11th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
We joined WWI after the winning side was pretty much assured, yes, but it was _far_ from assured in WWII. Hitler made it easier for us, no doubt of that, but to say we'd "still be trying to figure out who's side to be on" is laughable. Most assuredly we'd have gone to Europe as well as the Pacific, it just wouldn't have had the primary thrust.