Underused weapons and equipment in WW II

samneanderthal

Active member
Although WW II saw the construction of extremely expensive battleships (Bismarck, Littorio, Yamato, etc,) and the birth and rise of many sophisticated weapons that required huge investments and the best minds, there were many inexpensive, sometimes even low tech or obsolete weapons that could have made a major difference during the war, had they been available in larger quantities.
Here are some examples:
The Italian 90/53 AA cannon was lighter, easier to make and harder hitting than the famous 88 mm FLAK of the Germans. It fired a 10.2 kg projectile at a higher speed than the 9.3 kg projectile of the 88 mm yet only slightly over 500 were made throughout the war. It is surprising that Germany would not copy this weapon or supply the steel to Italy to produce many more of them, which would have been invaluable for AA and antitank duty. The self propelled version Semovente 90/53 was even more useful but made in even much more ridiculous numbers.

Even the German 88 mm FLAK that saved Rommel in Arras, Gazala, el Alamein, etc, from total defeat against tanks that were impermeable to his tank and antitank weapons was always in very deficient numbers at the front (only about 21,000 were made). In Barbarossa, the Germans had to face 28,800 Soviet tanks and had only 3,600 tanks and their antitank weapons were useless against the KV and T-34 tanks at 1,000 m or the other tanks at 2,000 m but vulnerable to the 88 mm, but the Gemrnas had only 7,180 cannon of all types for the invasion, perhaps as few as 1,100 of them were 88 mm, a ridiculously small number for a 3,000 km front and 4 million men. Moreover, many of these cannon were towed by 6 horses and advanced so slowly that they were always tens or hundreds of km behind the front, so the front had desperately few of them when they needed them during an offensive. It is ironic that Germany would build extremely expensive and difficult to transport 800 mm double rail guns capable of firing 7 metric ton shells and take them all the way to Sevastopol, yet would have ridiculously few of the relatively inexpensive 88 mm guns in all the fronts.

An apparently obsolete, inexpensive, fuel efficient plane that was easy to learn to fly and extremely useful during Guderian's sickle cut in France was the Henschel Hs-123. It was an all metal, biplane dive bomber with a very reliable air-cooled engine. Guderian was impressed with its quick turn around, ruggedness and precision. Although it was a little slower than the Stuka, it was much better for the muddy aerodromes in the USSR and as long as there was German air superiority it had excellent survivability. However, Göring stopped producing it in 1938 and destroyed the tooling in 1940, so only a few were available for Barbarossa. Had Guderian had the support of several dozen Hs-123 during Yelnya, he would probably have been able to hold back the Soviet tanks while he received supplies. Instead of losing 34,000 men and a large number of Stugs and tanks and invaluable time having to withdraw.

Although the 8 mm Kurz was designed in 1938, it was not used until the expensive assault rifle entered mass production in 1943. Had the Germans made some MG-34 for this caliber, it would have been ideal for assault troops that could run with a lot more of these lighter cartridges, under cover from a conventional MG-34 a few hundred meters back.

The M-1 Garand was designed to fire a smaller diameter bullet on a slightly shorter case, making it much more useful, comfortobale (less recoil) and efficient. But McArthur decided to produce it in .30-06 to use the available ammo. Not realizing that many more million rounds of this more expensive cartridge would have to be produced during the war than were in stock and that the soldiers would have to carry them and take the recoil. Furthermore, the Garand would have been much better had it used the same Magazine than the B.A.R. designed at the end of WW I.
 
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During the war the axis produced extremely few machine guns, submachine guns and mortars, so that most soldiers used 5 round, bolt action rifles, which were of little use at close quarters and had a low rate of fire at long range. It is surprising that America, the country least prepared for war in 1939 was the only one to mass produce an 8 round automatic rifle and that the axis countries didn't at least copy the British Lee Enfield's 10 round capacity, which they had to fight at a disadvatage in WW I.

Guesstimated Mortar Production:
Axis: Germany 74,000, Japan 29,000, Italy 22,000 Total 125,000
Allies: USSR 200,000, US 105,000, GB 103,000 Total 408,000 (3.3 times more than the Axis)
Guesstimated Machine gun Production:
Axis: Reich 680,000, Japan 380,000, Italy 160,000 Total 1,220,000 (by far most of them 8 mm or below)
Allies: US 2,670,000, USSR 1,477,000, GB 297,000, Canada 252,000, Total 4,666,000 (3.8 times more than the Axis, mostly 7.62 mm, over a million 12 mm)
Guesstimated Submachine gun production:
Axis & Finland: Reich 1.6 million, Italy 400,000, Finland 80,000, Japan 25,000 Total 2.105 million
Allies: USSR 7 million, US 780,000, GB 620,000: Total 8.4 million (4 times more than the Axis)

Note than even the sparsely populated Canada incredibly produced more machine guns than Italy and 37% as many as Germany.


 
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The Italian Folgore and the Romanian IAR-80 were good designs for their time. Unfortunately both countries produced them in very small numbers so they did not contribute to the war effort. Had Italy and Romania produced 4 times more of them, they could have helped considerably. The Italian CR.42 was one of the best biplanes ever produced and had there been some German planes to protect it in Libya in 1940, it would have been very helpful for ground support. However, they were destroyed by the British in large numbers and were of little use throughout the war (they performed dismally in the BoB, where they should not have participated against Hurricanes and Spitfires).

The Stuka was an excellent dive bomber but required fighter cover (like all bombers, except perhaps the Mosquito). It experienced very heavy losses during the BoB and was withdrawn from the front, mainly because initially Göring did not coordinate massive attacks, but sent a few planes at a time, allowing radar to detect them and send the fewer British planes to destroy the German planes, and gave them time to refuel and reload and go back for the next wave. Had Göring sent waves of 600 planes or more at a time from the beginning of the BoB, he would have promptly obliterated the airplanes, aerodromes, radar stations, etc, and suffered very few losses. The Stuka would have been quite useful and much less vulnerable in these massive attacks. Finally, The Stuka was produced in ridiculous numbers (6,500 from 1937 to 1945) and hundreds were lost in France, Norway, Greece, the BoB, the Mediterranean, etc, So that in Barbarossa they were many fewer Stukas spread over a 3,000 km front than there have been in tiny France. Accordingly, Guderian received totally insufficient air support in the USSR, where he had to face many more tanks than in France. In France Guderian's sickle cut was so successful because he received the most intense and prolonged air support in history, but in the USRR he recieved a very small fraction of that when he needed it most (having run out of supplies in Yelnya).

The Vought Corsair was designed and tested long before the Hellcat was (it was the first American fighter to reach 400 mph or 644 km/h) and would have been a much better fighter than the P-40 in 1942 against the Zero in the Pacific and the Bf-109 in North Africa, but it didn't enter mas production till late in 1943. It was one of the biggest technological wastes in the war.
 
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During the North African campaign, the British 8th Army captured an anti tank gun from the Afrika Korps.

On examination it was found to be of British Manufacture and built as a Anti Aircraft Gun (either 3.7 or 4.7), checking the serial number it was found that the gun was exported to Russia who converted it into a very effective anti tank gun, captured by the Germans, sent back to Germany and finally North Africa. It seemed the British had a very good anti tank gun and didn't know it.
 
The British military mind was that Ack Ack guns where strictly for shooting down aircraft and should not be used for any thing else. It was not till towards the end of the war did they even start to use the Bofor Gun against fortified positions and that was on a local basis.
 
If there were few Stuka's produced after 1940,it was because ,after 1940,the Stuka had become obsolete .It could not defend itself against enemy aircraft and AA guns.
It also had a short flying-range .
 
There were few Stukas produced in 1940 (the critical year when many were lost), most Stukas were produced in 1941, 42 and especially 43 (over 1,800). The Kanonenvogel with two 37 mm cannon firing tungsten carbide projectiles was extremely effective during Kursk. The Germans only stopped using it because they ran out of Tungsten. In 1942 the Stuka received a more powerful engine and much heavier armor. As long as the Germans ruled the air, it worked wonders, but the western allies started destroying planes very rapidly and the Soviets dominated the air after Kursk, so the Stuka became very vulnerable.
Had they produced more Stukas before and during Barbarossa or not wasted them in the BoB, Greece,. Yugoslavia, Africa, etc, Barbarossa would have been even more successful.
In just one demonstration near Zagan, Poland for Göring in a cloudy sky 13 were lost when they dove out of the clouds into the ground. These 13 would have been very valuable in Barbarossa. Even the Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Croats, Slovaks and the Italians received some (Picchiatello). So the number available to cover the German tanks was always ridiculous. Compare the 6.500 Stukas to the 37,000 Sturmoviks, keeping in mind that the Stukas went to several fronts (Spain, Poland, Norway, France, Holland, Belgium, BoB, Greece, Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, Romania, the USSR, etc,) while all the Sturmoviks remained in one front and that the Germans never had 5,000 tanks in the USSR at a given time and the Soviets had 28,800 tanks at the beginning of Barbarossa (By January 30, 1942 there were probably fewer than 130 Stukas and 1,500 German tanks in service in the USSR, spread over a huge front) and the Soviets exceeded that number at several points late in the war.
For example, during Torch some of the few Stukas, Ju-88s, etc, urgently needed in Stalingrad were sent to Africa, which allowed the Soviets to cross a lot more soldiers and finish off the Germans.
There were over 300 Stukas in combat when Germany invaded tiny Poland (which had a few hundred planes and tanks), but only 290 Stukas when it invaded the endless USSR (which had 28,800 tanks and 21,000 planes).
At a short distance the 1943 Stuka could carry an 1,800 lb bomb.
 
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The British military mind was that Ack Ack guns where strictly for shooting down aircraft and should not be used for any thing else. It was not till towards the end of the war did they even start to use the Bofor Gun against fortified positions and that was on a local basis.
Yup, & I think it was an 88mm also!
 
During the war the axis produced extremely few machine guns, submachine guns and mortars, so that most soldiers used 5 round, bolt action rifles, which were of little use at close quarters and had a low rate of fire at long range........
It´s not correct.

The rifle was a far more efficient weapon than generally recognized, and was used with deadly effect in close combat in the manner of a sub-machine gun. Also rapid fire is possible with the right technique. British commandos were trained to deliver a rate of five rounds in four seconds with reasonable accuracy.
 
Reasonable accuracy and high rate of fire are relative terms. At close quarters in a Stalingrad blockhouse I prefer a PPSh-40 with a very high capacity drum magazine that spits several rounds per second with little recoil and is much easier to carry around obstacles with its short barrel. At 150 m I would prefer a special MG-42 built in 8mm Kurz, at 300 m a conventional MG-42 and at 600 m a .50 cal Browning, but of course you can use a 5 round Mauser or a single shot .60 caliber elephant gun everywhere.
 
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It is interesting that although the USSR produced 7 miilion submachine guns, by far most of the PPSh-40s, the Soviets also used Irani workers to produce hundreds of thousands of these cheap weapons under license in Iran for the USSR (for Stalin no number was enough) during the Soviet occupation of Iran. In contrast the British don't seem to have used the numerous Indian workers even to produce primitive weapons, etc,

Another big waste of scarce planes and pilots was the Hurricanes in France, many of which had obsolete 2 blade, 2 position propellers that detracted considerably from the planes performance, making these Hurricanes even more vulnerable to the Bf-109 than those with the variable pitch, 3 blade propeller. Accodringly these poor pilots had to face the huge LW with the worst fighter, while Dowding kept the Spitfires and most of the Hurricanes with 3 blade props in Britain.
In my view, it was criminal of Dowding to send these men with inferior machine to the slaughter and to leave Britain with very few experienced pilots. If France was not defensible, then no British fighters should have been sent. If it was defensible then by far most of the fighters, especially the best should be sent. The more and the better the planes, the greater the odds that they will defeat the enemy or at least survive to fight another day. The most striking thing is that the useless Fairey Battle, which also cost the lives of hundreds of men without destroying any objectives did have the same Merlin engine as the Hurricane but was equipped with the 3 blade propeller. Had these planes been grounded after the initial dismal losses and their porpellers been installed on the Hurricanes, these would have been much more effective and the engines could have been used for repairs. Most importantly, the Battle and Hurricane pilots would have been more useful.

Among the weapons used least effectively during the war were the largest battleships ever built, the Yamato and her sister the Musashi, with 70,000 ton displacement and 18" guns, which consumed a lot of fuel saling all over the Pacific and did very little damage. A third sister ship was converted into an aircraft carrier but was promptly sunk by an American submarine before entering service and by that time there were few planes and even fewer experienced pilots anyway. Had the Japs made 4 carriers with that steel and labor. Yamamoto made a huge blunder in Midway. Instead of keeping his huge fleet together, se sent the 4 carriers and a few ships a few hundred miles ahead of the Yamato and a lot of battleships, cruisers, destoyers and 2 light carriers, so that most of the large ships did not contribute their search planes nor their antiaircraft guns nor attract some of the American bombers away from the carriers and the 2 light carriers did not contribute their planes to the battle. Had the formidable fleet been together the 3 American carriers and the few escort ships would have been detected earlier and certainly lost the battle and Midway would have been invaded.

An inexpensive piece of low tech equipment that I'm sure would have saved many German limbs and lives that winter in 1941 in the USSR are the hand warmers that you can buy at Costco in the US by the box for a few cents a piece. A paper bag with fine iron dust that releases a little heat for several hours as the iron oxidizes. But since they were not availabe at the time, the least the modern and bright German army could have done is rush some good winter clothes to the front, instead of having tens of thousands of frost bite casualties and deaths by hypothermia. It doesn't get any lower tech than that.
 
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This is hindsight blahblah :the German losses due to frostbite (most very moderate) were very limited,the Russians also had losses due to frostbite (it was cold on the Russian side also:wink:),whatever:the winterclothing was available ,but only a small part could reach the front,due to transport difficulties(the soldiers also needed weapons and ammunition).Or do you claim that the winterclothing had to be sent to the front in the summer?:p
 
Hugh Dowding was absolutely right in keeping the best fighters back during the battle of France, they were going needed for the Battle of Britain that Dowding knew full well the RAF was going to face alone.

It´s not correct.

The rifle was a far more efficient weapon than generally recognized, and was used with deadly effect in close combat in the manner of a sub-machine gun. Also rapid fire is possible with the right technique. British commandos were trained to deliver a rate of five rounds in four seconds with reasonable accuracy.

We had a RAF Regiment Flight Sergeant demonstrate rapid fire with a Lee Enfield using thumb and forefinger to operate the bolt, while the 3rd finger operated the trigger.

However, in CQB if offered the choice of a Lee Enfield or Sterling, I'd take the Sterling every time.
 
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It was not an option to use a sub-machine gun for the average infantryman in World War II, he only had his rifle and his bayonet. So to claim that the bolt action rifles were of little use at close quarters only proves to me that he is not familiar with small units tactics during World War II.

It´s not always an advantage to use a smg. The accuracy a rifle offers over a smg is particularly important when doing room clearing where there may be innocent people mixed in with adversaries. Misdirected shots could mean the loss of innocent lives. The SBS preferred the U.S. M2 Carbine rather than the Sterling for this type of combat back in the good old days.

Most people think that CQB/CQC is the same as urban warfare. It's not, it is a tactical concept. Jungle and guerrilla warfare are also potential stages for CQB/CQC.
 
It´s not always an advantage to use a smg. The accuracy a rifle offers over a smg is particularly important when doing room clearing where there may be innocent people mixed in with adversaries. Misdirected shots could mean the loss of innocent lives. The SBS preferred the U.S. M2 Carbine rather than the Sterling for this type of combat back in the good old days.

The problem I have with full powered rifle ammunition of the L1A1 is over penetration and length of the rifle while carrying out room clearing. If I remember correctly the Iranian Embassy siege was carried out by SAS using H&K MP5's backed up by Browning Hi Powers.

Most people think that CQB/CQC is the same as urban warfare. It's not, it is a tactical concept. Jungle and guerrilla warfare are also potential stages for CQB/CQC.

Hence, "Sten Alley"
 
Hi BritinAfrica,
The Allies's most valuable asset were the pilots. Dowding sent the most experienced pilots and together with the most experienced Belgian, Dutch, Polish and French pilots, they had to fight with the worst available planes (Hurricanes with 2 blade props, Gladiators, H-75s, MS.406s, etc), thus minimizing their chances of survival and losing most of them, (very few French pilots joined the British for the BoB out of anger because the Brits had not sent the best planes). When France fell, Britain was left with extremely few pilots and plenty of HUrricanes and Spitfires, the worst possible situation. The RAF was extremely lucky to have excellent pilots form Poland, Czechoslovakia, Norway, Canada, NZ, SA, etc, Who had to learn to fly the better planes in a few days for the BoB (instead of the 11 months of the Sitzkrieg before the invasion of France).
The RAF was actually doomed after the fall of France, more than by the few, Britain ws saved by Göring's extreme stupidity. Like I mentioned above when talking about the Stuka in the BoB, had Göring sent only attacks 600 planes at a plane, he would have lost many fewer planes and the Brits would have rapidly lost their pilots (many on the ground), planes, Radar stations, AA, aerodromes, etc, and hence the Battle of Britian. By sending initially small waves, Göring allowed the Brits time to refuel, reload, send reserves in, etc, and lost large numbers of planes (especially the most useful Ju-88 and BF-109, which would have been invaluable in the USSR or the Mediterranean), stopped using the Stuka (a large percentage of his bombers and a most useful attack plane) and lost 2,000 planes without any gains at all.

Had the Spits and 3 blade Hurricanes been in France, the French fighters could have concentrated on the German bombers, while the former concentrated on the German fighters, inflicting unacceptable losses on the Germans, whose offensive depended completely on air support.
 
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One missed opportunity was the Johnson Light Machine Gun. Seemed to be a real improvement over the BAR, but Johnson had alienated the Army brass by his many attempts to get the M-1941 adopted that the LMG was ignored except for a small number bought by the Marines & some by the Army.
 
Yes, army brass was pretty dull, they also rejected the brilliant American designer's tank that would become the T-34, while the US went with the Lee and Sherman.

Regarding bolt actions, the WW II Mauser had 5 rounds against 10 of the Enfield or 67 of the PPSh-40, which was no more expensive than the bolt action rifles. The M-1 Garand cost pretty much the same as the Mauser to make by the million and the Mg-34 cost perhaps 3 times as much as the Mauser. In contrast, the life of a single experienced soldier is worth much more than 100 rifles or a cannon.
That's is why I insist that in 1941 it was extremely stupid (and of course inhumane) to send over 4 million men mostly with bolt action rifles and extremely few tanks, mortars, machine guns, planes, artillery and trucks (relying heavily on 615,000 horses) into the largest and best armed country that ever existed (though the worst led).

A very interesting design is that of the Polsten 20 mm AA gun, lighter and very much cheaper and easier to make than the the Oerlikon, yet equally effective. It was conceived by Polish designers and cost 70 Lb and used 119 parts against the 350 lb and 250 parts of the Oerlikon. However, far more Oerlikons than Polstens were made!

also from my files,
The M3 grease gun, an extremely inexpensive, .45 auto caliber machine gun was a good American design but very poorly made. It cost about U$ 15 to produce, compared to over U$ 100 for the Tommy gun (Thompson machine gun). It would have been great for fighting at close quarters, but serious problems with retraction mechanism failure and magazine receiver malfunction caused it to be of little use. Accordingly, fewer than 700,000 were made, while 1.5 million Thompsons were bought in WW II. Solving the silly defects and using a .38 Super round would have allowed for higher round capacity in the magazine and made it very useful.
 
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The problem I have with full powered rifle ammunition of the L1A1 is over penetration and length of the rifle while carrying out room clearing.
Well, any caliber can over penetrate even a .22, but you are right. I remember a story that one of our NCO's told from his time in Northern Ireland in the 80s. The section forced their way into a house where they found the local gunman seated in his armchair. When he grabbed his weapon, they shot him. The bullet went through the gunman, through the chair he was sitting in, through the wall behind him and into the apartment next door where they found the projectile in the opposite wall.

Maneuvering in close quarters combat was difficult with the L1A1 when shooting around corners or trying to quickly respond in hallways, tight rooms, or doorways but with some practice it is possible. Today the M4 Carbine is one of the preferred weapons on the close combat battlefield today. Few weapons provide today's special "operators" with the tactical flexibility offered by the M16/M4 series'. Another weapon category for selected special operations scenarios is the sub-machine gun, with one of the most popular models being the 9mm Heckler & Koch MP5. With over 120 variants available, the MP5 meets the broadest range of tactical requirements.

If I remember correctly the Iranian Embassy siege was carried out by SAS using H&K MP5's backed up by Browning Hi Powers.
Yes,it was the combination the SAS used.
 
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