(UK)Will police now shoot to kill?




 
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(UK)Will police now shoot to kill?
 
July 25th, 2005  
Galaxy
 

Topic: (UK)Will police now shoot to kill?


(UK)Will police now shoot to kill?
Quote:
A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.

The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.

Roy Ramm, former Met Police specialist operations commander, said the rules for confronting potential suicide bombers had recently changed to "shoot to kill".

One terrorism expert said if the shooting was carried out by police - rather than special forces - it would represent a "pretty big departure" for the UK force.

Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

'Head shot'

"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.

Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black agreed there was no other way of stopping someone who was an "immediate threat to life".

Muslims 'jumpy'

"It implies that the police knew who he was, it also implies that they considered him an immediate threat to life, under which circumstances they must try and kill somebody...you must shoot to kill."

But MCB has urged the police to explain why the man - said to be of Asian appearance - was shot dead.

Spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said Muslims he had spoken to this morning were "jumpy and nervous".

"I have just had one phone call saying, 'what if I was carrying a rucksack?'.

"There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear," he said.

"We are getting phone calls from quite a lot of Muslims who are distressed about what may be a shoot to kill policy."
July 25th, 2005  
Kirruth
 
 
The big news in the UK this weekend was the revelation that the man who was shot was a Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27 year old electrician who was not linked to the bombers.

Certainly there have been soldiers deployed in plain clothes to assist Police, but whether the people who shot Mr. Menezes were military has not been revealed. I think it is pretty likely, since the 9mm automatic used in the shooting is the kind of item UK special forces (with their love for USMC issue weapons...even the less popular ones) tend to carry. Had it been Police, I would have expected a revolver (of the kind typically used by Special Branch officers) or an HK sub machine gun (used by Police firearms officers) to have been used.
July 25th, 2005  
Shadowalker
 
 
God knows why he ran? If i had been in a similar circumstance to the police officer than i think i would of shot the guy to, he ran and leapt over trainthe barriers to the tube station and almost ran onto a tube train
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(UK)Will police now shoot to kill?
July 25th, 2005  
SwordFish_13
 
 
Hi,

Quote:
God knows why he ran?If i had been in a similar circumstance to the police officer than i think i would of shot the guy to, he ran and leapt over trainthe barriers to the tube station and almost ran onto a tube train

There are Numerous Possibilites........Maybe he didn't have a ticket - that could explain why he ran ....... or maybe Plane Cloth Goons with Guns Scared him ......... Well if Suddenly a Bunch of Plane cloth Guys takes out Guns and point them at you ........ you might get scared ........ Especially for a Foreigner.


"When people get scared - logic is usually the first to go" - dino


Imagine what could happen here with all the non-english speaking people ...... I can see it now..........somebody could be running through an airport terminal yammering on in Spanish or any number of other languages something to the effect "Help! Crazy men with guns are chasing me!" and "BLAM" ....... down they go .

This Terrorism is a Double edged Sword ........ IF you Don't kill they would Kill you and you risk many peoples lives........ if you Kill there is chance you might kill a Innocent who has not been give a chance to prove his innocense


Peace
-=SF_13=-
July 25th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 

Topic: Re: (UK)Will police now shoot to kill?


Quote:
A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.
Is it just me, or do I think the Muslim group should be a tad bit concerned about the 8 BOMBINGS perpetrated by muslims. How about you get concerned about the fifty some odd dead.
July 25th, 2005  
SwordFish_13
 
 

Topic: Re: (UK)Will police now shoot to kill?


Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
Is it just me, or do I think the Muslim group should be a tad bit concerned about the 8 BOMBINGS perpetrated by muslims. How about you get concerned about the fifty some odd dead.
A few things about British Muslims ........ by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph


One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists

six per cent insist that the bombings were fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000

56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

32 per cent, are far more censorious, believing that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".

16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.



Source:telegraph.co.uk

Quote:


One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
By Anthony King
(Filed: 23/07/2005)

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming.

The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts.

The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events.

Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are.

YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders.

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous".

Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive.

The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old.

However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere.

The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel "very loyal" (46 per cent) or "fairly loyal" (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

If these findings are accurate, and they probably are, well over 100,000 British Muslims feel no loyalty whatsoever towards this country.

The proportion of men who say they feel no loyalty to Britain is more than three times the proportion of women saying the same.

Equally remarkable are YouGov's findings concerning many Muslims' attitudes towards Western society and culture.

YouGov asked respondents how they feel about Western society and how, if at all, they feel Muslims should adapt to it. A majority, 56 per cent, believe "Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end".

However, nearly a third of British Muslims, 32 per cent, are far more censorious, believing that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".

Among those who hold this view, almost all go on to say that Muslims should only seek to bring about change by non-violent means but one per cent, about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.

Yet again, far more men than women and far more young people than their elders evince this kind of hostility towards the world around them. In addition, tens of thousands of Muslims view the whole of Britain's political establishment with suspicion.

More than half of those interviewed, 52 per cent, believe "British political leaders don't mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims".

Almost as many, 50 per cent, reckon the main party leaders are not being sincere when they say they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain's Muslim communities.

Despite Tony Blair's well-publicised efforts to reach out to Muslims, fewer than half of those interviewed, 42 per cent, approve of the way he has handled Britain's response to the July 7 events.

Many British Muslims are probably reluctant to give Mr Blair credit for anything at all following his complicity with America, as they see it, in launching the invasion of Iraq. Just more than half, 52 per cent, are impressed by the performance since the bombings of Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Great Britain. Some Muslims' discontent with Britain clearly extends to discontent with the existing moderate and pro-British Muslim leadership.

A cloud of suspicion also hangs over Britain's judicial system.

YouGov asked its Muslim respondents whether or not they thought anyone charged and taken to court in connection with the July 7 attacks would receive a fair trial. Only 37 per cent said yes. The rest reckon he or she would not or were doubtful that they would.

Despite these widespread doubts, a large majority of Britain's Muslims clearly believe the time has come when Muslims must shoulder their share of the responsibility for preventing and punishing terrorist crimes such as those in London.

As the figures in the chart show, roughly a third of Muslims reckon they should assume "a great deal" of the responsibility and another third reckon they should assume at least "some" of it.

Even more impressive in some ways is the fact that large numbers now say they are prepared to put their mouth where their feelings are.

As the figures in the chart show, almost three quarters of British Mulsims, 73 per cent, say they would inform the police if they believed that someone they knew or knew of might be planning a terrorist attack.

Nearly half, 47 per cent, say they would also go to the police if they believed an imam or other religious person was trying to radicalise young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West.

Not only that but 70 per cent of Muslims reckon they have a duty to go to the police if they "see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious".

Taken as a whole, the findings of YouGov's survey suggest that, although large numbers of British Muslims dislike British society and in some cases may be tempted to attack it, the great majority are loyal and law-abiding and are unlikely to provide the radicals with moral support, let alone safe havens.

YouGov interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online between July 15 and yesterday. The data were weighted to reflect the composition of Britain's Muslim population by gender, age and country of birth.

YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

# Anthony King is professor of government at Essex University.

Peace
-=SF-13=-
July 25th, 2005  
KC72
 
 
Quote:
18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.
well they know where the airport is.
July 25th, 2005  
LeEnfield
 
 
Further information has come to light, the chap was here on a work visa that had expired some time ago, so know doubt he did a runner to try and avoid be sent back to sunny Brazil
July 25th, 2005  
Irishone
 
 
aye thats exactly why he ran his visa was up.
Edit: ok sorry
July 25th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Irishone, read the forum rules.