i think if the germans could keep their alliance with russian troops.. the war would of ended verry differant

Originally Posted by Ray89

i think if the germans could keep their alliance with russian troops.. the war would of ended verry differant

Small problem with that is the ideological differences between Nazism and Communism, but more than that, Hitler rode to power by systematically wiping out the Communist Party in Germany. He regularly used different tactics to demonize them and blame them for things that his own party was actually responsible for. The German people under Hitler were about as likely to count Communists as their real allies as they were to put the Jews in charge of the military. In both cases, its a nice idea but it was ideologically impossble.

If they had gone about the invasion of the Soviet Union with a general attitude that they were "liberating them from the evils of Communism" or whatever, that would have been more likely to work out well.

I've changed my mind from the Battle of Midway to the Battle of Britain as the turning point of the war.

The Japanese struck at Midway in order to draw out the rest of the U.S. Pacific Fleet and destroy it. This would eliminate any naval threat against the Japanese, giving them supreme control over the waters. They hoped destroying the rest of the fleet would persuade the U.S. to come to the negotiations table.

Now even if the Japanese had won the battle, I don't think they would, or could for that matter, go any farther than Midway atoll. And I don't think the U.S. would have given in to negotiations. Though the Japanese would be able to lay seige to the Hawaii islands, I'm not sure they had the capabilites, or the desire, to invade them. Now even if they did, where to from there? Invade the U.S. mainland? Not a chance. I believe the U.S. would have continued to fight, slowly rebuilding the navy.

It would have, however, brought more attention to the Pacific Front, rather than the European Front. Perhaps it would have delayed operations in the North African and, eventually, the European Front.

Now the Battle of Britain was crucial. If the Battle of Britain turned for the Germans, than there would have been one less ally and one less jumping off point into Europe. After eliminating the threat to the West, I'm sure more forces could be switched over to the Eastern Front. The U.S. would be left without the Normandy invasion and would probably be stuck with a southern french invasion or more stressed Italian Campaign.

Who knows...way too much speculation on my part. Correct me on any of my points, I'm still a new student to military history.

Originally Posted by Arclight

.Now the Battle of Britain was crucial. If the Battle of Britain turned for the Germans, than there would have been one less ally and one less jumping off point into Europe. After eliminating the threat to the West, I'm sure more forces could be switched over to the Eastern Front. The U.S. would be left without the Normandy invasion and would probably be stuck with a southern french invasion or more stressed Italian Campaign.

Who knows...way too much speculation on my part. Correct me on any of my points, I'm still a new student to military history.

It's my belief that the outcome of the Battle of Britain changed little, as even had the Germans won it was very unlikely that any invasion of Britain would have taken place. Probably the biggest impact was that the losses that the Luftwaffe suffered were missed the following year when Germany invaded Russia. More significant IMO was Hitler's decision to halt Guderian's panzers from finishing off the BEF in Dunkirk in June 1940. The loss of those 330,000 men and their heavy equipment would have severely affected British morale and public opinion and may have forced Churchill out to be replaced by Lord Halifax, at the time British Foreign Secretary. Lord Halifax was more liberal than Churchill and it has been recorded that he might have been in favour of making a separate peace with Hitler.

However, I still regard the Battle of Kursk as the true turning point of WW2.

Although the Battle Britain was not one of major battles in WW2, it did hold off the Germans until the weather changed and made an invasion across the Channel unwise during the winter months. The plans for the invasion were very precise and had taken in to account almost every thing. The Barges had been collected and converted and brought to embarkation sites the troops had been brought in, and a full scale air assault took place by the Germans to try and gain mastery of the skies prior to the invasion. IF Hitler had not changed his mind and decided to attack London instead of going for the RAF aerodromes, then the out come could have been very different. Hitler then thought he had the time to take on Russia then he could turn his attention back to us. It should be remembered at this time we did not have any heavy four engine bombers at all, even the Wellington bomber was only just begin to come into service. Had Hitler made the dash across the Channel while we were at our weakest then he just could have succeeded and it this that makes the Battle Of Britain so important.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

It's my belief that the outcome of the Battle of Britain changed little, as even had the Germans won it was very unlikely that any invasion of Britain would have taken place. Probably the biggest impact was that the losses that the Luftwaffe suffered were missed the following year when Germany invaded Russia. More significant IMO was Hitler's decision to halt Guderian's panzers from finishing off the BEF in Dunkirk in June 1940. The loss of those 330,000 men and their heavy equipment would have severely affected British morale and public opinion and may have forced Churchill out to be replaced by Lord Halifax, at the time British Foreign Secretary. Lord Halifax was more liberal than Churchill and it has been recorded that he might have been in favour of making a separate peace with Hitler.

However, I still regard the Battle of Kursk as the true turning point of WW2.

I was under the impression that if Germany had won the Battle of Britain, they would have close to total control over the skies? If so, then they could bomb as they please, allowing the change in leadership you suggest would occur if Dunkirk turned out differently. No more threat in the West, and thus, more troops in the East.

Originally Posted by Arclight

I was under the impression that if Germany had won the Battle of Britain, they would have close to total control over the skies? If so, then they could bomb as they please, allowing the change in leadership you suggest would occur if Dunkirk turned out differently. No more threat in the West, and thus, more troops in the East.

It's possible that had the Battle of Britain been lost, Lord Halifax would have replaced Churchill. However, no more troops would have been available for Barbarossa - the Germans were scraping the bottom of the barrel as it was. More significant would have been more fighter and CAS available for the Wehrmacht, especially in November and December 1941.

I think that Stalingrad battle was the inflexion point in WWII. If germans would have conquered it, the russians would have be dead. The germans could have reached the oil reserves in northern russian and the coal mines. I also think that loosing a city with the name of their leader would have been a moral strike to russian troops.

I guess it all depends on ones definition of "Turning Point"

For me.. The Pacific is Midway, the loss of those four carriers is hard to look past. Devistating defeat for Japan... one that she would never really fully recover from imo....

Europe... a good argument can be made for Kursk or Stalingrad. I lean to the more traditional Stalingrad though, or Case Blue in general. The effects of this loss contributed more to the turning of the tide in the east then any other thing. imo...

In the war in the Pacific then I agree the Battle Of midway was a turning point. After this Battle the Japanese were on the defensive, rather than the offensive.
In Russia, Stalingrad was the turning point for Germans in Russia.
In North Africa the it was El-Alamein.
In Europe, the Battle of Britain stopped Hitler from Invading Britain and kept open the life line to America. This was followed by D Day which helped to bring an end to Hitler in Europe, there was also the Battle of the Atlantic and if we had lost that we could have lost the war. There are so many battles that took place that all helped to shape the final victory.